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OK, enough of the revisionist history. The civil war WAS COMPLETELY ABOUT SLAVERY, therefore "the rebels" were all about DEFENDING slavery. There is simply no way to get around this when we're talking about events so well documented. Read the last words of Jefferson Davis to the Senate when he resigned and then try to argue the war wasn't about slavery. Many apologists like to wsay "it was about state's rights" but yeah - STATES RIGHTS TO KEEP SLAVES. The south had one economic engine, and that was cotton - and the cotton industry depended upon SLAVES to keep it running. You can try to redirect the conversation anyway you like, but at every turn you are going to bump up against the very same obstacle: slavery.
Look, I fly the Bonnie Blue proudly from my house; its the flag closest to my door so it always brushes against me as a I walk out the door to my car. I like being a southerner and I consider it important we never forget our history - but "remember" doesn't mean "romanticise." To keep the godwin going I'll continue the point just made: Hitler gave us the Volkswagen and the Autobahn (the grandaddy of the US highway system) and even high grade encryption (which makes our banking possible today) but that doesn't change the fact WWII was about spreading one madman's xenophobic view of the jews throughout the world. I'll openly admit I even love Nazi art, but that doesn't mean I should act surprised when others dont share my objective ability to separate the art from the context, nor am I going to share this admiration with others without carefully explaining that my interest in the art does not reflect an embracing of anything other than ideals purely of form and design.
Some opera houses to this day will not allow the playing of Wagner or of Carl Orff. People have the right to be offended; you can be all in their face and sometimes that's good, but it's important to choose one's battles wisely - and fighting over which polyfoam cartoon to have dance around a football field seems pretty trivial to me. How many of you so up in arms over this even have the state flag flying from your house, or know the story of the Bonnie Blue?
Nobody is saying it wasn't about slavery, it was a HUGE part of the Civil War, but things like states rights, tariffs, regional differences and rivalries always played into it. I'm not apologizing for anything, but if you look at how the world was back then, the mindset of most white Americans North, South and West widely thought that blacks were rightfully in their place, today we think it's repulsive, but that's because morality changed. After the 1860 election the free states had outnumbered the slave states, many southerners knew that it would change the North-South balance in politics, tipping in the North's favor. Leaving some to think that Northern influence will run rampant throughout the U.S., while banking off the backs of the southern states were many tariffs were given. If the CSA had won, it would be a different story, but there is no problem honoring the Generals and Soldiers on both sides of the fight.
And the Bonnie Blue flag was used by the Republic of Central Florida, not too long after it was ingrained into Mississippi's secession flag, and before that it was put into the Texas flag, as a secession flag against Mexico.
The point is some pantywaist will always find something offensive, in the PC society we have today anything traditional or Southern is relentlessly attacked, so I say we rub it in their eye!
The point is some pantywaist will always find something offensive, in the PC society we have today anything traditional or Southern is relentlessly attacked, so I say we rub it in their eye!
I'm not trying to be snarky; I'd like to know. Other than the Ole Miss mascot and confederate flags, what else "traditional or Southern is relentlessly attacked"?
OK, enough of the revisionist history. The civil war WAS COMPLETELY ABOUT SLAVERY, therefore "the rebels" were all about DEFENDING slavery. There is simply no way to get around this when we're talking about events so well documented. Read the last words of Jefferson Davis to the Senate when he resigned and then try to argue the war wasn't about slavery. Many apologists like to wsay "it was about state's rights" but yeah - STATES RIGHTS TO KEEP SLAVES. The south had one economic engine, and that was cotton - and the cotton industry depended upon SLAVES to keep it running. You can try to redirect the conversation anyway you like, but at every turn you are going to bump up against the very same obstacle: slavery.
Look, I fly the Bonnie Blue proudly from my house; its the flag closest to my door so it always brushes against me as a I walk out the door to my car. I like being a southerner and I consider it important we never forget our history - but "remember" doesn't mean "romanticise." To keep the godwin going I'll continue the point just made: Hitler gave us the Volkswagen and the Autobahn (the grandaddy of the US highway system) and even high grade encryption (which makes our banking possible today) but that doesn't change the fact WWII was about spreading one madman's xenophobic view of the jews throughout the world. I'll openly admit I even love Nazi art, but that doesn't mean I should act surprised when others dont share my objective ability to separate the art from the context, nor am I going to share this admiration with others without carefully explaining that my interest in the art does not reflect an embracing of anything other than ideals purely of form and design.
Some opera houses to this day will not allow the playing of Wagner or of Carl Orff. People have the right to be offended; you can be all in their face and sometimes that's good, but it's important to choose one's battles wisely - and fighting over which polyfoam cartoon to have dance around a football field seems pretty trivial to me. How many of you so up in arms over this even have the state flag flying from your house, or know the story of the Bonnie Blue?
You mean the average Confederate infantryman had slaves? Do you think he really cared about those plantation owners and upper classes who did?
The Confederacy started out with the slaveholding issue but escalated into a war that brought the army of the North--and my great-great-grandpas were among that group-into the South and the volunteers were defending their farms and people. The bravery and the patriotism went beyond that original catalyst instigated by a few vested interests.
In other words, someone lit the brushfire for his own purposes but others put it out. Maybe they should have just surrendered and given up on any influence and interests they may have had because the slave interests started the mess.
So the Rebels were not a bunch of slaveowning monsters. The Old South had its warts but it had its good people and its cultural milieu that went beyond cotton. The baby gets thrown out with the bath water.
America as a whole has her warts too. Many of them--from discrimination to My Lai to support of oppressive regimes--do we deny the American flag or Uncle Sam?
You mean the average Confederate infantryman had slaves?
Do you really not understand politics at all? Most of the soldiers fighting in the revolution hadn't really thought much about it either way before the war; it had to become "an issue" of liberty and americanism and breaking free from oppression by the King before they were willing to take up arms - do you tea party folks not even remember what that was about? Most people in the US didn't want to get involved in WWII right up until the point we HAD to get involved to defend our own shores. Do you think the soldiers fighting in the gulf now all own stock in oil companies? If the mideast had no oil it would be a bigger wasteland right now than most of Africa, and most americans would care as little about what happens there as they care about what happens in Darfur.
No one said the rebel soldiers themselves were a bunch of slave owning monsters - although to be an OFFICER one had to buy a commission, and to outfit his regiment himself, so that does make a pretty clear cut case for "Colonel Reb" in all likelihood being EXACTLY the demon many cast him as. But what I (and Jefferson Davis) SAID is that THE WAR WAS ABOUT SLAVERY. To deny this is to deny something so clear as the blue in the sky, as his address to the senate is a matter of public record and the president of the confederacy SAID HIMSELF this war was to be about slavery, and the rights of some states to continue a lifestyle and culture built upon that "right." The political motivations of the individuals fighting in that battle are as irrelevant as the personal political bents of Nazi war criminals or of 7 year old soldiers fighting in Africa.
I don't see anyone picketing book signing for that hack John Grisham, or boycotting movies that are filmed in the South, or trying to get Britney Spears off the airwaves because she's a trashy southern girl. How ironic that the few of you here complaining about this "politically correct" group of zealots expressing their offense are yourselves doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing - but in even grander fashion. The NCAA says they won't put Ole Miss games on the televised game schedule if Col Rebel appears on the field and you get all indignant and make this a problem with "leftists" or "liberals" or something. How stupid; It reminds me of those wacked out yankees who insist that being prejudicial and embracing biogotry toward those who are themselves racial bigots is a logical and justified response.
It has to do with NCAA corporate money , etc..They dont want to see a "Colonel" running around flying a confederate flag . It shines a bad light on the sport and all the sponsors that support the bowl games etc.
One inescapable fact towers over all this...the American Civil War was fought from 1861-1865...it ended for all intents and purposes IN 1865---that's about 145 years ago...and yet, it caused a schism of sorts in this country that exists to this day
The combatants on BOTH sides, whether 'Johnny Reb' or 'Bluebelly/Yankee', were ALL American citizens...imagine, if you will, whatever caused the war notwithstanding, manpower and resources of the most powerful nation on earth, turned inward against themselves for four long, arduous years...I still read anything I can about the war to this day, and my learning never stops..
Now...what does this have to do with the topic at hand? Well, I'm a black man, and I've heard things about Mississippi from my mother and my maternal grandparents, who migrated north to Ohio after being born and living in Mississippi for a few years...were those things always pleasant to hear? No, I'd be lying if I said they were...but I decided early on to form my OWN judgments and opinions about people, places, and things, the better to gain understanding...
That being said, any offense I may have taken over things like Colonel Reb, or people flying the Confederate flag, was done away with long ago...the only time my feathers get ruffled, truthfully, is if someone co-opts stuff like say the Rebel flag, or the swastika of Naziism, and uses them to adorn a bully-pulpit to preach hate and divisiveness among Americans...for example, not too long ago, there was an uproar about a woman who lived in a predominately black neighborhood in Charleston SC, who flew the flag in front of her house...
Her neighbors were upset about it, and when asked about it, the woman made a statement along the lines of 'they need to get over it'...when I viewed the clip of the interview, my initial reaction was one of 'she's just using the flag as a giant extended middle finger and a lusty 'bleep you' to her neighbors'...that's where my problem lies---I wonder if she had taken the time to read up on anything about the War or the history behind the Flag, instead of just swelling up and telling folks to get over it...
Do Colonel Reb and the Flag represent symbols of another time in our nation's culture? Of course they do...and no mascot-naming contest should quench the flame that Ole Miss alumni, have in their hearts...when I saw Ole Miss football games on TV, I didn't go run calling Al Sharpton when I saw Colonel Reb or the Flag---that's (to me) the silly thing to do...and this whole flap over them right now is silly (LOL...I was musing humorously with my wife the other day, given Mississippi's sometimes bad rep in regards to race matters, that I was amazed that no one said anything about it being a Black bear!)
I may have disagreed with the OP (Suprascooby) about other things in the past, but he was dead-on about one thing---all this tiptoeing and caution about being politically correct is silly and it needs to stop...EVERYTHING about the South and its traditions should not be subject to ridicule and scorn, based on stereotypes...but in closing I repeat a point I made earlier---some folks still use stuff as a bird-flip and a 'bleep you!', and that defienitely needs to stop
I have to ask you, also, besides the mascot and the confederate flag, what else has been "subject to ridicule and scorn"?
...based on my own travels...
Southern accents...the image of Southerners as 'rednecks', 'racists', and 'Bible-thumpers'...
The pace of life in the South (sometimes initiated by transplants from the Norhteast, who may be used to the 'gogogo mememe nownownow inyaface rapid-fire way of their region)...the thought that the South is, for some reason, behind the times BECAUSE of said slow pace...
NASCAR takes its fair share of potshots too...along with the image of the 'good ol' boy', and the big-bellied, sunglasses-wearing 'Buford T. Justice' stereotype of Southern law officers
Southerners (and I don't always blame them for this one) aren't always slavishly devoted to whatever is the hip, cool, phenomenon of the moment...they are old-school about a lot of things, and, being kinda old school myself, they get a Mulligan from me here LOL
Hopefully I've given a good answer and a fair representation of what I was talking about
I'm not trying to be snarky; I'd like to know. Other than the Ole Miss mascot and confederate flags, what else "traditional or Southern is relentlessly attacked"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincatfish
...based on my own travels...
Southern accents...the image of Southerners as 'rednecks', 'racists', and 'Bible-thumpers'...
The pace of life in the South (sometimes initiated by transplants from the Norhteast, who may be used to the 'gogogo mememe nownownow inyaface rapid-fire way of their region)...the thought that the South is, for some reason, behind the times BECAUSE of said slow pace...
NASCAR takes its fair share of potshots too...along with the image of the 'good ol' boy', and the big-bellied, sunglasses-wearing 'Buford T. Justice' stereotype of Southern law officers
Southerners (and I don't always blame them for this one) aren't always slavishly devoted to whatever is the hip, cool, phenomenon of the moment...they are old-school about a lot of things, and, being kinda old school myself, they get a Mulligan from me here LOL
Hopefully I've given a good answer and a fair representation of what I was talking about
I share the same sentiments with CaptainCatfish here Peppermint, if I had listed my reasons it would have been repetetive.
Southern accents...the image of Southerners as 'rednecks', 'racists', and 'Bible-thumpers'...
The pace of life in the South (sometimes initiated by transplants from the Norhteast, who may be used to the 'gogogo mememe nownownow inyaface rapid-fire way of their region)...the thought that the South is, for some reason, behind the times BECAUSE of said slow pace...
NASCAR takes its fair share of potshots too...along with the image of the 'good ol' boy', and the big-bellied, sunglasses-wearing 'Buford T. Justice' stereotype of Southern law officers
Southerners (and I don't always blame them for this one) aren't always slavishly devoted to whatever is the hip, cool, phenomenon of the moment...they are old-school about a lot of things, and, being kinda old school myself, they get a Mulligan from me here LOL
Hopefully I've given a good answer and a fair representation of what I was talking about
Rep points for you Captaincatfish!
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