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I don't doubt people drive to Branson to shop at Branson Landing, Target, and a few other places, but I meant what I said. Harrison has much more commercial for its size than I'm used to seeing. It seems to be a major destination for those that live miles around in all directions. Before going there, I had envisioned Harrison being much smaller and less significant.
Which station(s) do they say "Southern and proud of it"? I'm curious about those kind of details, so I'm going to look it up once you tell me. But even if it is not in Arkansas, it's not terribly surprising that at least one radio station has the opinion that Branson is Southern.
There didn't seem to be many tourists the day I was there. The other people eating there appeared to be locals. There were a lot of employees, at least one of which was not local but Ukrainian. I'm just giving my perspective with the amount of experience I had. Branson is obviously not completely Southern, so just as you see the Southern in it, it's possible that others see the Midwestern. I should remind you I'm not necessarily saying Branson isn't Southern based off my little experience, I'm just giving the perspective I got from my recent trip.
As for the workforce in Branson, it's as ridiculous of you to assert that half of the workforce is from Arkansas by personal experience alone as it would be for me to rule out Branson being Southern based on my little experience, which I was not and am not doing. That sort of information is just hard to gather by personal experience in a place with such a sizeable workforce. If you have stats, I'd be glad to look at them. By the way, I meant to say I doubt* half of the workforce is from Arkansas, not that I'm "doing" half of the workforce from Arkansas.
You touch on so many different subjects that it's hard to touch on all of them. I will try to do my best! The radio station that says this on a consisent basis is 102.9 the z Branson's local country station. It is for Branson and Harrison. It is our only local country station. I have no reason to randomly make up what they say on the radio. I looked up the phrase and don't see it on their website. It is just something that is said on the air daily. How did the people at the restaurant "appear" to be local? Did you ask them? Also "Branson is obviously not completely southern" is your opinion. It is not fact at all. I am 6th generation down here. I have a southern accent. My whole family have southern accents. All my friends I grew up and went to school with have southern accents. Also any dialect survey from any major linguist says we are in the southern dialect region. So maybe all the professional linguists are wrong and you are right. Didn't realize that a Ukraine worker who worked somewhere made the place less southern. LOL!!!Also I have no stats for the Branson workforce as there are no stats out there kept of where people travel from to work in Branson. Also you are correct in your assertion that Harrison is a major hub for the area. People from Branson do go to Harrison for things and people from Harrison come to Branson as well. I'm actually surprised the Harrison and Branson area arent considered one metro area as it only takes 20 mins to get between the two towns.
^Sorry. I actually had the thought I was touching on too much after typing my post. I didn't think you were making up what you say is said on the radio. I was just curious if the station was based in Branson or Harrison, even if it's for both. I don't know how to explain to you how the people appeared to be locals. But with one group that was mentioned in the conversation between the serve and them. And I never said the Ukrainian guy meant Branson is less Southern.
While I don't know much about dialects, etc., I do seem to recall that southern Missouri isn't distinguished from Arkansas. Do you have a map? I'm just talking about my personal experience, which I've explained how much I had in Branson. While I don't know much about it, I suspect linguistic regions aren't black and white and that there's variation within them. You should explain that better to me and show a map or whatever and actually be informative instead of bordering on rude. After all, I didn't say that a lot of natives of the area have Southern accents. If you recall, I did say "A friend of mine said he knows a guy from West Plains who now lives in Branson with a strong Southern accent." I have a lot of family in southern central Missouri and northern/northwestern Arkansas. I wish I was familiar with them, but unfortunately I'm not. Mostly Harris's (leaning more toward Arkansas) and Collins's (leaning more toward Missouri). If you know any of them that are from there, chances are I'm related.
There are probably stats somewhere for Branson's workforce. I just don't know where to find them. I have noticed that Branson has it's own micropolitan statistical area and that it's not bi-state. Same with Harrison. And I also wonder why they aren't considered one metro area. I guess the fact they aren't begs the question why.
By the way, for what it's worth this website about the Hercules Glades Wilderness area east of Branson calls the area Midwest (in the first sentence):
Also, I'm not trying to fight you or necessarily on one side or the other. I do wonder where all you've been in Arkansas and which other fully Southern states you've been to.
^Sorry. I actually had the thought I was touching on too much after typing my post. I didn't think you were making up what you say is said on the radio. I was just curious if the station was based in Branson or Harrison, even if it's for both. I don't know how to explain to you how the people appeared to be locals. But with one group that was mentioned in the conversation between the serve and them. And I never said the Ukrainian guy meant Branson is less Southern.
While I don't know much about dialects, etc., I do seem to recall that southern Missouri isn't distinguished from Arkansas. Do you have a map? I'm just talking about my personal experience, which I've explained how much I had in Branson. While I don't know much about it, I suspect linguistic regions aren't black and white and that there's variation within them. You should explain that better to me and show a map or whatever and actually be informative instead of bordering on rude. After all, I didn't say that a lot of natives of the area have Southern accents. If you recall, I did say "A friend of mine said he knows a guy from West Plains who now lives in Branson with a strong Southern accent." I have a lot of family in southern central Missouri and northern/northwestern Arkansas. I wish I was familiar with them, but unfortunately I'm not. Mostly Harris's (leaning more toward Arkansas) and Collins's (leaning more toward Missouri). If you know any of them that are from there, chances are I'm related.
There are probably stats somewhere for Branson's workforce. I just don't know where to find them. I have noticed that Branson has it's own micropolitan statistical area and that it's not bi-state. Same with Harrison. And I also wonder why they aren't considered one metro area. I guess the fact they aren't begs the question why.
By the way, for what it's worth this website about the Hercules Glades Wilderness area east of Branson calls the area Midwest (in the first sentence):
Also, I'm not trying to fight you or necessarily on one side or the other. I do wonder where all you've been in Arkansas and which other fully Southern states you've been to.
USDA website I see according to the link. Also that website is government ran which likely uses the census map as geography references.
The government considers MD and DE in the south and we all know on here both of those states today are hardly southern. DE really was never that southern and today Missouri is a heck of a lot more southern than the state of Maryland. Besides some parts on the Eastern Shore Maryland is not southern anymore and is very liberal more like the northeast now. Compared to Missouri that still has a sizeable chunk of the state that is southern, and a part of it that's in the transition zone, plus politically MO is more conservative and similar in some ways politically to the south vs the state of Maryland which is a lot more liberal and more like the Northeast.
Far southern south central MO is NOT Midwestern. Politically, religion, ancestry, climate, linguistics have southern traits. Like I said my aunt had a house there about 10 minutes from Arkansas and it was all southern granted upper south hick kind of southern.
Here are some dialect maps. The first one I recall is an ongoing study. I think it's pretty accurate but that hump IMO should be shifted a bit further west and extend to just outside of Rolla. All of the maps show the southern quarter of MO including Branson as Southern dialect. Granted it seems southern dialects are starting to fade away especially with the young generations. I wonder what it will be like in 20 years when the older people who always had southern dialects die off. The last link is to the University of PA dialect map done from a study and is usually consider to be the most reliable dialect map. That was done back in 1997 I think. Since then southern dialect has declined so the lines might be more blurred now. I drove from South FL to Stl a few months ago and not everyone in the middle of GA had a southern accent. I guess central GA isn't southern then :/
^I'm familiar with the fact and argument that the Census Bureau considers Delaware and Maryland the South.
Are you actually truly familiar with Maryland? I'm not and don't know much about it. I've never been there. Although I do have to wonder if it's more Southern than you let on, especially outside of suburban DC and Baltimore. I don't know, but I'm thinking maybe. I mean, you seem to be claiming Missouri is quite Southern. However, people who only see Kansas City or St. Louis probably wouldn't think that. I'm thinking it might be a similarly scenario in Maryland, but I don't really know. Just saying because I know you wouldn't like it if somebody said Missouri wasn't Southern base off only certain parts of the state. I'm going to be blunt here, but your argument sounds like a parroted continuation of one I've seen over and over regarding this subject here and elsewhere. Maybe you're actually truly familiar with Maryland, I don't know. You said "Besides some parts on the Eastern Shore Maryland is not southern anymore and is very liberal more like the northeast now". Okay. I don't know what the Eastern Shore is, but there's sure a lot of Missouri that's not Southern too, so a similar argument could be and is often used about Missouri not being Southern. I wonder if there are people like you in Maryland who argue how Southern it is. Have you heard from them or are you running with the same type of people's opinion you oppose and do your best to counter when it's regarding Missouri when you rule Maryland as being "hardly Southern". By the way, Atlanta might be described as "very liberal" by some. Does that mean it's not Southern? I'm asking since you use a similar ideas to support the idea that parts of Maryland aren't Southern.
The funny thing about this is I haven't stated that I don't believe Missouri possesses Southern traits. I simply described my account and the context of it and the impression I got from that. I wonder if there are people in Georgia, Alabama, or even Tennessee, who have to argue so hard about their area being Southern, or if the facts there simply stand on their own.
Regarding that first dialect map link. Am I missing something or does it really show south central and southeast Indiana as being "The South", meaning more Southern than the category "Inland South" far southern and southeast Missouri falls into? Also on that map, if it's accurate, then that might explain why my time spent in the southern half of Arkansas moved my "Overton Window" at bit and made Branson seem and feel less Southern than it might otherwise have seemed.
Thanks for the maps. I looked at the others as well. I see the point that far southern and southeastern Missouri fit in with the South. I had seen that before, but this was a nice refresher. I have to say though that the South is a big region and there's certainly variation and some areas probably have a higher density of speakers that the map suggests than others. And I don't just mean transplants. Some people seem to lose their Southern accent for whatever reason. Part of it might be living in a larger city, a university education, etc. I mentioned before I wasn't in Branson long. Eventually I'll go back down there and spend a lot more time. I'd like to go east of there too and see the area a big portion of my family has been since the 1830's, which includes of Ozark, Howell, Douglas, and Texas counties off the top of my head.
^I'm familiar with the fact and argument that the Census Bureau considers Delaware and Maryland the South.
Are you actually truly familiar with Maryland? I'm not and don't know much about it. I've never been there. Although I do have to wonder if it's more Southern than you let on, especially outside of suburban DC and Baltimore. I don't know, but I'm thinking maybe. I mean, you seem to be claiming Missouri is quite Southern. However, people who only see Kansas City or St. Louis probably wouldn't think that. I'm thinking it might be a similarly scenario in Maryland, but I don't really know. Just saying because I know you wouldn't like it if somebody said Missouri wasn't Southern base off only certain parts of the state. I'm going to be blunt here, but your argument sounds like a parroted continuation of one I've seen over and over regarding this subject here and elsewhere. Maybe you're actually truly familiar with Maryland, I don't know. You said "Besides some parts on the Eastern Shore Maryland is not southern anymore and is very liberal more like the northeast now". Okay. I don't know what the Eastern Shore is, but there's sure a lot of Missouri that's not Southern too, so a similar argument could be and is often used about Missouri not being Southern. I wonder if there are people like you in Maryland who argue how Southern it is. Have you heard from them or are you running with the same type of people's opinion you oppose and do your best to counter when it's regarding Missouri when you rule Maryland as being "hardly Southern". By the way, Atlanta might be described as "very liberal" by some. Does that mean it's not Southern? I'm asking since you use a similar ideas to support the idea that parts of Maryland aren't Southern.
The funny thing about this is I haven't stated that I don't believe Missouri possesses Southern traits. I simply described my account and the context of it and the impression I got from that. I wonder if there are people in Georgia, Alabama, or even Tennessee, who have to argue so hard about their area being Southern, or if the facts there simply stand on their own.
Regarding that first dialect map link. Am I missing something or does it really show south central and southeast Indiana as being "The South", meaning more Southern than the category "Inland South" far southern and southeast Missouri falls into? Also on that map, if it's accurate, then that might explain why my time spent in the southern half of Arkansas moved my "Overton Window" at bit and made Branson seem and feel less Southern than it might otherwise have seemed.
Thanks for the maps. I looked at the others as well. I see the point that far southern and southeastern Missouri fit in with the South. I had seen that before, but this was a nice refresher. I have to say though that the South is a big region and there's certainly variation and some areas probably have a higher density of speakers that the map suggests than others. And I don't just mean transplants. Some people seem to lose their Southern accent for whatever reason. Part of it might be living in a larger city, a university education, etc. I mentioned before I wasn't in Branson long. Eventually I'll go back down there and spend a lot more time. I'd like to go east of there too and see the area a big portion of my family has been since the 1830's, which includes of Ozark, Howell, Douglas, and Texas counties off the top of my head.
IMO that map has the dialect a little too far north in IN though. Southern IN is similar to the transitions areas in southern IL and southern MO. Mix a both. I mean I wouldn't call it as southern as Sikeston or Branson of course. Otherwise I think it's pretty accurate, and of course southern Arkansas is going to be more southern than northern AR Ozarks because southern AR is in the deep south. Places like parts of the MO and AR Ozarks, eastern TN and KY are southern but it's upper south, hickish kind of southern. I guess southern light is a term to use maybe. While the deep south like GA, AL, MS it's a lot more in your face and bolder. I can't quite put my finger on it but traveling through Georgia especially central GA for example, the true deep south just feels so much more southern than driving through KY for example.
I don't know how to put it but when I'm in Kentucky, or northern Arkansas and far southern MO Ozarks it just can't compare to the deep south. The southern culture just feels stronger in the deep south.
IMO that map has the dialect a little too far north in IN though. Southern IN is similar to the transitions areas in southern IL and southern MO. Mix a both. I mean I wouldn't call it as southern as Sikeston or Branson of course. Otherwise I think it's pretty accurate, and of course southern Arkansas is going to be more southern than northern AR Ozarks because southern AR is in the deep south. Places like parts of the MO and AR Ozarks, eastern TN and KY are southern but it's upper south, hickish kind of southern. I guess southern light is a term to use maybe. While the deep south like GA, AL, MS it's a lot more in your face and bolder. I can't quite put my finger on it but traveling through Georgia especially central GA for example, the true deep south just feels so much more southern than driving through KY for example.
I don't know how to put it but when I'm in Kentucky, or northern Arkansas and far southern MO Ozarks it just can't compare to the deep south. The southern culture just feels stronger in the deep south.
Do you feel that Branson is as Southern as Sikeston?
Why is it always the same two individuals on this forum, that year after year, want everyone to believe Missouri is 'southern"?
Do they somehow share a vast arsenal of experience in their less than 25 years old lives, with which to base this opinion?
Or, having made their opinions on this topic numerous times, and their agenda well known to all regular members, they move on to other Missouri topics.
Can either of you actually discuss any other topic on city-data other than this whole Missouri being southern thing? Or is this really all you can talk about?
Seriously - when you are signed in, click the name of any member and you will see a box open up with one of the options 'see all posts by....".
Other people discuss other things. Other people agree and disagree about other things?
Missouri and "southern" shouldn't even be in the same sentence. They are both Midwest. You don't see people asking how "eastern" Houston is. Lol
What is *both* midwest? Nobody here is saying that Missouri isn't midwestern, but if you think Sikeston is midwestern and not southern, then you really don't know what you are talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SW Missouri Dave
Why is it always the same two individuals on this forum, that year after year, want everyone to believe Missouri is 'southern"?
Do they somehow share a vast arsenal of experience in their less than 25 years old lives, with which to base this opinion?
Or, having made their opinions on this topic numerous times, and their agenda well known to all regular members, they move on to other Missouri topics.
Can either of you actually discuss any other topic on city-data other than this whole Missouri being southern thing? Or is this really all you can talk about?
Seriously - when you are signed in, click the name of any member and you will see a box open up with one of the options 'see all posts by....".
Other people discuss other things. Other people agree and disagree about other things?
Can you?
I like MOKAN's posts because he is actually adding to the discussion and is interested in it, rather than pushing an agenda. I love this topic but I am also interested in others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN
^I'm familiar with the fact and argument that the Census Bureau considers Delaware and Maryland the South.
Are you actually truly familiar with Maryland? I'm not and don't know much about it. I've never been there. Although I do have to wonder if it's more Southern than you let on, especially outside of suburban DC and Baltimore. I don't know, but I'm thinking maybe. I mean, you seem to be claiming Missouri is quite Southern. However, people who only see Kansas City or St. Louis probably wouldn't think that. I'm thinking it might be a similarly scenario in Maryland, but I don't really know. Just saying because I know you wouldn't like it if somebody said Missouri wasn't Southern base off only certain parts of the state. I'm going to be blunt here, but your argument sounds like a parroted continuation of one I've seen over and over regarding this subject here and elsewhere. Maybe you're actually truly familiar with Maryland, I don't know. You said "Besides some parts on the Eastern Shore Maryland is not southern anymore and is very liberal more like the northeast now". Okay. I don't know what the Eastern Shore is, but there's sure a lot of Missouri that's not Southern too, so a similar argument could be and is often used about Missouri not being Southern. I wonder if there are people like you in Maryland who argue how Southern it is. Have you heard from them or are you running with the same type of people's opinion you oppose and do your best to counter when it's regarding Missouri when you rule Maryland as being "hardly Southern". By the way, Atlanta might be described as "very liberal" by some. Does that mean it's not Southern? I'm asking since you use a similar ideas to support the idea that parts of Maryland aren't Southern.
The funny thing about this is I haven't stated that I don't believe Missouri possesses Southern traits. I simply described my account and the context of it and the impression I got from that. I wonder if there are people in Georgia, Alabama, or even Tennessee, who have to argue so hard about their area being Southern, or if the facts there simply stand on their own.
Regarding that first dialect map link. Am I missing something or does it really show south central and southeast Indiana as being "The South", meaning more Southern than the category "Inland South" far southern and southeast Missouri falls into? Also on that map, if it's accurate, then that might explain why my time spent in the southern half of Arkansas moved my "Overton Window" at bit and made Branson seem and feel less Southern than it might otherwise have seemed.
Thanks for the maps. I looked at the others as well. I see the point that far southern and southeastern Missouri fit in with the South. I had seen that before, but this was a nice refresher. I have to say though that the South is a big region and there's certainly variation and some areas probably have a higher density of speakers that the map suggests than others. And I don't just mean transplants. Some people seem to lose their Southern accent for whatever reason. Part of it might be living in a larger city, a university education, etc. I mentioned before I wasn't in Branson long. Eventually I'll go back down there and spend a lot more time. I'd like to go east of there too and see the area a big portion of my family has been since the 1830's, which includes of Ozark, Howell, Douglas, and Texas counties off the top of my head.
Good post. About the Indiana thing, I don't know how culturally southern they are, but I went to southeast Indiana a few months ago. Along I-65 near Louisville in Indiana, there were definitely some people that were talking like Kentuckians. It would be interesting to know if they were from Kentucky or Indiana. I wasn't there long enough to learn any more about the place. Southeast Indiana didn't have people talking like that, and it definitely wasn't culturally southern.
What is *both* midwest? Nobody here is saying that Missouri isn't midwestern, but if you think Sikeston is midwestern and not southern, then you really don't know what you are talking about.
I like MOKAN's posts because he is actually adding to the discussion and is interested in it, rather than pushing an agenda. I love this topic but I am also interested in others.
Good post. About the Indiana thing, I don't know how culturally southern they are, but I went to southeast Indiana a few months ago. Along I-65 near Louisville in Indiana, there were definitely some people that were talking like Kentuckians. It would be interesting to know if they were from Kentucky or Indiana. I wasn't there long enough to learn any more about the place. Southeast Indiana didn't have people talking like that, and it definitely wasn't culturally southern.
True. Also Southeast Indiana is further north as well compared the southwest and south central Indiana that dips further to the south like Evansville for example. Maybe that's a factor too while the eastern part isn't as southern? Also northern KY near Cincinnati is pretty Midwestern as well.
The far southern parts of IN like Evansville IMO is like Springfield and Cape Girardeau. Both are literally right on the Mason Dixon line.
Really no other Midwestern state has the amount of southerness MO has. MO has parts of the state that are in the southern and a decent chunk of it is in the transition zone. IN and IL only smaller chunk is in the transition zone except for Cairo IL, and maybe Evansville IN area but Evansville can't compare to Kennett or Sikeston for southerness still. Plus with Missouri's history and other things factor in as well. Missouri is the most southern Midwest state though and out of all of them has the most ties to the south.
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