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I like MOKAN's posts because he is actually adding to the discussion and is interested in it, rather than pushing an agenda. I love this topic but I am also interested in others.
Good post. About the Indiana thing, I don't know how culturally southern they are, but I went to southeast Indiana a few months ago. Along I-65 near Louisville in Indiana, there were definitely some people that were talking like Kentuckians. It would be interesting to know if they were from Kentucky or Indiana. I wasn't there long enough to learn any more about the place. Southeast Indiana didn't have people talking like that, and it definitely wasn't culturally southern.
Thank you. You have my angle here pegged exactly. And that's interesting about Indiana. I've never been, but what you say makes perfect sense. Closer to Louisville is going to lean more Southern while closer to Cincinnati is going to lean more Midwestern. From what I've seen as far as study of this type of thing and heard from others, I wouldn't be surprise if the people you heard in Indiana were from there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardsneedoffense
Really no other Midwestern state has the amount of southerness MO has. MO has parts of the state that are in the southern and a decent chunk of it is in the transition zone. IN and IL only smaller chunk is in the transition zone except for Cairo IL, and maybe Evansville IN area but Evansville can't compare to Kennett or Sikeston for southerness still. Plus with Missouri's history and other things factor in as well. Missouri is the most southern Midwest state though and out of all of them has the most ties to the south.
I can agree with this. It makes sense. But even so, except for maybe southeast Missouri and the Bootheel, which I haven't been to, I think there's something lost in Missouri's Southern-ness due to it being an overall Midwestern state, even if it is as much retained as influence from other, nearby fully Southern states. I do wonder what implications people being told Missouri is a Midwestern state have had. But lately I've been wondering what role which side those in government who run the state plays in all of this, meaning the establishment including the "pillars of the community." One thing I specifically wonder about is the department of education and if those running it considering themselves Midwesterners or Southerners has effects on kids in the classrooms.
Another thing I specifically wonder about is flags. In Arkansas I saw two towns, one being the sizeable and significant city Hot Springs, where it appeared the actual municipal governments either flew Confederate flags, or at least sanctioned it. That leaves me wondering if that is true anywhere in Missouri. I do know in one part of Missouri, just outside of one of the historic towns with the strongest Southern heritage, Lexington, even at the Confederate Memorial State Historic Site and Cemetery the state was not allowing Confederate flags to be flown. Apparently in 2003 Missouri Governor Bob Holden ordered the Confederate flags that were there and at the Fort Davidson State Historic Site taken down. Since then a group has tried to have the flags restored at the Confederate Memorial State Historic Site with no luck. Apparently current Missouri Governor Jay Nixon and other lawmakers in were not and are not going for it.
Thank you. You have my angle here pegged exactly. And that's interesting about Indiana. I've never been, but what you say makes perfect sense. Closer to Louisville is going to lean more Southern while closer to Cincinnati is going to lean more Midwestern. From what I've seen as far as study of this type of thing and heard from others, I wouldn't be surprise if the people you heard in Indiana were from there.
I can agree with this. It makes sense. But even so, except for maybe southeast Missouri and the Bootheel, which I haven't been to, I think there's something lost in Missouri's Southern-ness due to it being an overall Midwestern state, even if it is as much retained as influence from other, nearby fully Southern states. I do wonder what implications people being told Missouri is a Midwestern state have had. But lately I've been wondering what role which side those in government who run the state plays in all of this, meaning the establishment including the "pillars of the community." One thing I specifically wonder about is the department of education and if those running it considering themselves Midwesterners or Southerners has effects on kids in the classrooms. Another thing I specifically wonder about is flags. In Arkansas I saw two towns where it appeared the actual municipal governments either flew Confederate flags, or at least sanctioned it. That leaves me wondering if that is true anywhere in Missouri.
Interesting.
Well I know the Iron County Sheriffs Dept used to have a Confederate Battle Flag on their patch but I believe it has now been replaced with a MO flag. Here is their old patch. You can buy it at a few places on the internet and I've seen it on Ebay before. Iron County was a site of a major civil war battle. If Sterling Price had not taken a heavy loss there they likely would have went up to St. Louis and if not there Jefferson City and would have re-installed the elected government but Stl was too heavily defended and he suffered too much loss. Peculiar Police Dept, small town south of KC also has a battle flag in their patch as well. Both historic civil war heritage in these two places.
The Confederate Battle Flag flew at a few historic sites until One Term Bob had them removed in 2003 which was stupid. The Post Dispatch here in St. Louis did a poll and 2/3rds polled had no problems with the flags. They flew for over 100 something years with no complaints.
As for municipal governments modern time none I know of and if they do it's likely the Confederate National Flag. I know after the civil war some rural areas I've read flew the flags instead of American ones. People still fly them though. I've seen them in Southeast Missouri before and some in the Ozarks, but that's expected of course in those areas.
Someone on city data posted they claim to see a big one flying on the side of US 50, South of Hermann on someone's property but I have not been on US50 out there for years so I can't say if that's true.
I lived in Florida for 11 years and other than at memorials and historic sites I don't recall any government building flying the flag.
There has been talk of wanting to reinstall the Battle flags back at the MO state historic sites. Some of the rural Democrats constitutes were complaining to their representatives about why they have not installed them since Holden is no longer governor. 2012 there was a bill submitted to address this but it didn't go anywhere. From what I've heard the Stl black democrats complained about the bill. Again that's what I've heard why every year at the capital a bill doesn't get passed to address it. Republican and Democrat lawmakers keep promising they will get the flags up but they never follow through.
As for the education system and other things in Missouri about being Southern or not I'm not sure. I will say though MO politics certainly does have some southern components to it though outside of KC and Stl. It's not like AL, but it's certainly isn't way northern as well. MO has very loose gun laws for example, was one of the first states to ban gay marriage by a big margin, and strict abortion laws despite having two large metro areas in a otherwise rural state.
Also notice how the Democrats outside of St. Louis seem to be acting more conservative as well lately compared to other states like IL, MI, or OH for example. Chris Koster is an example of that, and Jay Nixon when up for election seemed more conservative as well. A trait seen in Kentucky as well.
But overall when you look at politics MO is a bit different than the other Midwestern states and the rural politicians are a bit more right wing than the other Midwestern states like Ohio MN, IA.
It seems the other Midwestern states don't lean as extreme except lately Kansas has really been trending very conservative.
Btw I'm not comparing MO to ND, SD but more of the nearby and MW states to it's east.
And the other note, when I read old articles, books etc it seems they used to refer to Missouri as a border state, and border south more than calling it a Midwestern state. Then the late 60s it started being called a Midwestern state like it is called a lot today. I know the civil rights act of 1964 southern MO congressmen voted against it, and one from Ike Skelton's old district voted against it too, and one of MO's Senators hesitated at first to support it while the St. Louis and KC reps supported it.
It might be different generations too. People back then probably had great grandparents and grandparents who lived in MO when it was much more southern that it is today.
But over the last 10 years imo MO seems politically to behaving more southern and conservative. Even in 2008 Despite Obama being predicted by many to win MO, McCain was still able to hold on.
My question is if the St. Louis area was a part of the state of IL and not MO what it would be like. I know it would be hard for Democrats to win the big state offices and a Democrat would probably not win federal elections in Missouri as well. Without Stl county and city the Democrat party in MO would be a non factor. Probably MO would be considered a bit more southern as well if Stl area was not in Missouri. It seems the Stl area has a big influence on the state.
Oh and on this college dating site I'm on I'm talking to some girl from Texas County MO and she considers herself to be southern she said.
Again that is really far south in the state and near highway 60. Not shocking.
Thank you. You have my angle here pegged exactly. And that's interesting about Indiana. I've never been, but what you say makes perfect sense. Closer to Louisville is going to lean more Southern while closer to Cincinnati is going to lean more Midwestern. From what I've seen as far as study of this type of thing and heard from others, I wouldn't be surprise if the people you heard in Indiana were from there.
Missouri is a neat state. I grew up in southeast Missouri near a village that was settled by Scotch-Irish settlers from North Carolina. I have always considered myself southern and not midwestern.
I live in rural West Tennessee now, and the people here are southern obviously, but they aren't quite the same. Around where I grew up would be closer to what urban people would call redneck. Everyone hunts and fishes, has a huge garden and cans a ton of food. Down here though, it just doesn't seem quite as "country" so to speak. I've only lived here a couple of months though so it's hard to say if my perceptions reflect reality.
^One of the most stupid things they said that stood out to me is that they hate the terrain of southern Missouri. Sure, they were bicycling, but that statement sounded very general.
Southeast and Southwest Missouri undecidedly have way more southern characteristics than Midwestern and are absolutely 100% part of the south. St. Louis and KC feel more Lower Midwest
Southern Indiana, I would conclude, is part of the upper south and I would dare to say that any folks in rural southern Indiana that speak with a bit of an accent are most definately hoosiers and nor Kyians....many folks in southern Ind have bit of twang in their speech.
Northern Kentucky feels maybe a bit more midwestern because of having been invaded by alot of Ohioans and folks from Cinnci. Back not too long ago that area was more southern without a doubt so get out of the Covington or Newport Ky city limits and it feels decidedly more southern and Kentuckian to me.
On the topic of Missouri: I would say that south of the Missouri river is a transition zone until you get down to around Rolla and Lebanon. Beyond that point its definately the south. However, isnt there an area just east of KC that some folks refer to as "Little Dixie" due to its ties with the southern immigrants who settled that area? To me MO is not a completely midwestern state, nor obviously southern, but I'd say it's split in 2 actually, with southern MO being in the upper part of the south and northern MO being in the lower midwest.
However, I cant tell much difference between traditional lower midwest culture and traditional southern culture, unless your talking the deep south, which IS considerably different.
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