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We have jobs? The reason so many in Montana are going to the oil fields in N. Dakota is because the oil "boom" hasn't really started here. What you don't understand is that "MOST" Montanans that work out of state still "LIVE" here. The love for Montana is so deep locals are willing to go elsewhere for the work in order to raise their families here. Like I said, Montana is a sacrifice state.
Huh, I didn't realize it was that common. Guess that's why my old Army friends who are from MT and still live there all work out of state in ND or WY.
As I said, everybody has the right to an opinion, you're opinion and mine don't match.
An important difference between my "opinion" and your opinion is clearly the extent to which reality influences them. Thanks for reminding me again, though.
You've referenced something that occurred in the 2013 legislative session, and yes, even though it was a horrid mistake on the part of a Democratic legislator, it isn't nearly as disgraceful as the right-wing leadership scheming that not only compromised some of the most valuable content of the final expansion bill this session, but that it almost prevented its passage entirely.
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Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
I could argue semantics about what I consider traditional, things like self sufficency and responsibility instead of demanding handouts from the government.
I could quote Thomas Jefferson, "That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves." or perhaps one by Henry Ford; "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian".
Or one of my favorites from Vladimir Lenin; "Socialized medicine is the keystone in the arch of the socialist state".
Accepting government handouts is a tradition that many Montanans know very well, Silvertip. It's been that way for a century (aruguably), and there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of motivation amongst all of you "libertarians, constitutionalists and conservatives" to change that, and so, I don't see your contradicting definition of traditionalism to be resoundingly characteristic of Montanans, regardless of their place on the ideological spectrum. (This is an interpretation of the facts, not a from-me-inspired opinion, Silvertip).
Now just a few little side-notes to keep things relevant:
Thomas Jefferson never lived to see a thing called "modern-day Montana". That's enough said right there.
Henry Ford could not likely have enjoyed his industrial successes in Montana's political climate of the late 19th/early 20th century, or for that matter, even this century.
The negligible validity of your Lenin quote aside, Medicaid expansion is not "socialized medicine" in the Soviet tradition, and certainly not any more socialized than the taxpayer-funded healthcare stipends that not even the most rabid anti-Medicaid Republican legislators are willing to waive after taking office (Say "Hi" to Art for me, by the way).
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Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
I could note that I've known Max Baccus since his first run for the house when I was a kid and he gave me and my friends a bunch of his campaign stickers to put on everything. We didn't know what it meant, just that it was fun to have an adult tell us it was OK to stick those stickers on everything in sight.
I knew Pat Williams, and I remember the house post office scandle he was part of.
People have the right to their opinion, I also have the right not to agree with that position. I won't pull this thread into a hyperbole driven shouting match.
You're a master at hyperbole, Silvertip. I think much of your comment history on this forum is testament to that, and it's noteworthy that for everything I gave you to consider and pick apart in my previous comment, you've followed your predictable pattern of chalking it all up to "opinion", and then...for some reason you quote Thomas Jefferson? Okay...
And no one is having a shouting-match or anything close to it. I think you really just don't want this back-and-forth to continue because you either can't or won't defend your assessments against mine in any substantial way.
Also, I must say it's sure neat that you've gotten to "know" so much of Montana's past and present political establishment...Daines, Burns, Williams, Baucus ...I mean "knowing" Max Baucus for 40 years isn't something that I would imagine most non-connected Montanans can attest to.
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Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
I love rural Montana, I love the people, I love the life here. It's apparent you don't have those same feelings, which is your choice.
I understand your frustration that voters are putting people in office you don't agree with, I have the same problem, although mine is mostly on a national level.
You can love rural Montana all you want--that isn't enough to bring it back to life, though (and when did I say anything about liking or disliking rural Montana?). It isn't a matter of me "choosing" how I feel about rural Montana; it's a matter of facts and realism having influenced me to see it for the sinking ship that it is, albeit with a few exceptions. It isn't something that makes me happy, but it also doesn't rouse a lot of sympathy from me when there's no will to change anything.
And sure, I wish the kind of person who votes in faith for Matt Rosendale would have their voter registration transferred to Arkansas, but, as they say, want in one hand...
My problem with a lot of Montana voters--and especially age-eligible non-voters--is that because of their (often legitimate) dissatisfaction with national politics over the last few years, their response has been to overwhelmingly give/allow local control to a party that is increasingly led by fringe-ideologues who feign economic freedom and individualism to win office and then make every attempt to govern as an oligarchy of social-engineering wingnuts who would never have been electable in their districts a decade ago. We used to have more of a healthy moderation in Montana, and I think it's diminishing, and it's happening quickly. Too many Montanans, I think, are either following the herd or simply failing to pay attention, and thus the middle is disappearing. That's really my problem in a nutshell.
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Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
This isn't the politics forum, It's the Montana forum, so you will see people post here who do love this state and living here.
That may upset you, but they are also entitled to their opinion.
I can allude to politics if I so please, thank you. I haven't broken any rules that I can think of, and it therefore isn't your function at this point to remind me what is and isn't appropriate subject matter for this forum, nevermind that you allude to politics constantly with your own "individualist" ideological proselytizing, that as I see it, resembles individualism in no way, shape or form (Jefferson quotes notwithstanding).
Opinions are great. Delusions aren't.
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Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
I love Montana in spite of it's blemishes, you see the blemishes and discount the positives.
We will never agree on most things, and that's fine. We still have the right to have a different opinion, at least for now.
I see the problems and don't ignore them in favor of mindless nativism. Big difference, Silvertip.
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Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
I don't like government, and I don't hide that. I see today's government with the hard turn it's taken to the left and think of another Jefferson quote: "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson
You have a good Montana Day
Yeah...and given his philosophy, I can't see why Thomas Jefferson would love Montana nearly as much as you do.
So Silvertip and Griz....are you actually from here then?
I don't at all doubt Silvertip's status as a native resident, but I think that the Montana Griz quote illustrates something that we've both surely been witnessing firsthand for years: Montana is a NIMBY-magnet like no other (hence the existence of this very thread).
NIMBY is not the correct application in this regard. That implies once established- everyone else, including industry, can stay out. It was commonly referred to in West Virginia as the D.C. suburbs encroached into the hills, consuming large(er) tracts of land once used for hunting grounds and economic production then turned into an ex-Beltway oasis.
Those folks shut the door on any economic activity once a mainstay of the area- logging and forestry, industrial production, even raising livestock. All shut down because the new folks said "no", NIMBY. "It rapes the environment, it pollutes the water, it makes the air 'smell' bad'". We became a bedroom community. No jobs, no economic activity- just real estate taxes. They commuted outside (or brought their money with them) and let everyone else go to Hell.
I lived it. I watched ag related businesses go under, paper mills get shut down and lumber operations get shuttered. We used to provide ALL of WV and the Beltway with apples- now it's imported from Chile or South American. Yeah NAFTA!
MTSivertip has been here his whole life- he's not shutting the door on anyone. He's not saying 'not in my backyard'. He's saying we don't want the same crap that spread in other areas, including the state I just moved from. That's not 'NIMBY'. I think Griz would agree as well, but I say that only from my view of his posts. There's a lot of economic activity in this state that has been shuttered as a result of 'NIMBY' attitudes. Even worse, a lot of it has been influenced by out of state concerns that have no life or tie to this area other than e-mail alerts and flyers stammering for an end to any economic pursuit that may, arguably, cause their issue du-jour harm.
I respect the opinions of MTSilvertip and MontanGriz, and frankly I admire it. I really don't want to see MT become another Eastern WV.
NIMBY is not the correct application in this regard. That implies once established- everyone else, including industry, can stay out. It was commonly referred to in West Virginia as the D.C. suburbs encroached into the hills, consuming large(er) tracts of land once used for hunting grounds and economic production then turned into an ex-Beltway oasis.
Yes, actually it is.
The "NIMBY" acronym is not specific to any demographic, place or event. It simply refers to a person(s) who opposes a change in their community or the presence of something undesirable in said community. You're from West Virginia. This is Montana. NIMBYism is not necessarily going to manifest here in exactly the same ways you witnessed in the place you've come from.
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Originally Posted by Threerun
Those folks shut the door on any economic activity once a mainstay of the area- logging and forestry, industrial production, even raising livestock. All shut down because the new folks said "no", NIMBY. "It rapes the environment, it pollutes the water, it makes the air 'smell' bad'". We became a bedroom community. No jobs, no economic activity- just real estate taxes. They commuted outside (or brought their money with them) and let everyone else go to Hell.
I lived it. I watched ag related businesses go under, paper mills get shut down and lumber operations get shuttered. We used to provide ALL of WV and the Beltway with apples- now it's imported from Chile or South American. Yeah NAFTA!
Fringe lunatics of the left-wing-enviro persuasions and right-wing-traditional-industry-only persuasions are, from what I've seen, equally hostile toward industrial growth in Montana (NOT IN MY BACKYARD) under the same BS banner of redundant, substance-devoid cries of "preserve our way of life!" We hear the same complaints you recall from WV in this state all the time...and that makes sense because, as I correctly pointed out, Montana has a lot of NIMBYs.
And I'm sorry that you "lived it"...I'm also sorry that you failed to leave your NIMBY baggage in West Virginia.
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Originally Posted by Threerun
MTSilvertip has been here his whole life- he's not shutting the door on anyone. He's not saying 'not in my backyard'. He's saying we don't want the same crap that spread in other areas, including the state I just moved from. That's not 'NIMBY'. I think Griz would agree as well, but I say that only from my view of his posts. There's a lot of economic activity in this state that has been shuttered as a result of 'NIMBY' attitudes. Even worse, a lot of it has been influenced by out of state concerns that have no life or tie to this area other than e-mail alerts and flyers stammering for an end to any economic pursuit that may, arguably, cause their issue du-jour harm.
I respect the opinions of MTSilvertip and MontanGriz, and frankly I admire it. I really don't want to see MT become another Eastern WV.
Silvertip et al makes it very clear on nearly every subject I've seen regarding a member's relocation to Montana that, basically, a desirable transplant is going to be someone who holds the same convictions as Silvertip/them/we/us, etc., etc., and is going to make a conscious effort to satisfactorily conform to Montanans' "way of life", whatever that should mean according to past and present generations of nativist snobs who childishly expect the world around them--indeed, Montana itself being their own backyard--never to change. If you detract from this thinking and have any intention of advocating or fomenting change, whether you be a transplant or a native, then you simply aren't welcome here. NOT IN MY BACKYARD.
That's my take on it, and I don't expect you to even consider it, much less accept it given your "respect" and admiration for the kind of outlook I reject outright.
And lastly, I agree with you that a lot of industry has been shuttered due to NIMBY attitudes, much of which, I should remind you, is strengthened by Montana's own nightmare of a state constitution and the powerful judicial system it establishes...
But discussing that for too long might yield to Montana nativists having to admit that maybe Montana's problems are often caused by Montanans themselves...and who wants to do that?
But discussing that for too long might yield to Montana nativists having to admit that maybe Montana's problems are often caused by Montanans themselves...and who wants to do that?
Ok, I admit it. You're the cause of all the problems in Montana. OK?
MontanaGriz and Threerun are 2 of the finest examples of people that we need moving into this state. I'm proud to know them, even if I haven't met Griz in person.
They bring experience, they've lived all over and know what works and doesn't. They come here by choice and they want to keep the good things that make this state what it is, and I for one am happy to have them here, and would be the first in line to welcome more just like them.
I've spoken to a lot of folks like you guy, true believers in a philosophy or ideology, and anyone that believes otherwise or questions it is a heretic to be burned at the stake.
I love Montana because it isn't California or Seattle, you despise it because it isn't California or Seattle.
I could engage in a battle of insults with you, waste a lot of time and energy refuting your rant's point by point which would be easy enough, but what will that change?
You aren't going to change your opinion, I'm not going to change mine. Simple.
Going back through the posts it's easy enough to see you have an agenda, and want to cause a huge angry argument on this board. Not going to happen using me as your foil anyway. You've proven beyond reasonable doubt that no amount of logic or long winded posts will make one iota of difference, you will still denegrate this state and it's people at any opportunity.
So, I will no longer provide the fodder for your diatribes.
Montanans, your pale face ancestors disrupted an ancient and deep Indian culture whose survivors have more right than you to be pissed off and resentful about outsiders. I know you know that, but it is easy to forget when you are savoring your disdain for that boob-job Californian who is opening another New Age shop downtown.
In the universal human pursuit of a better life, none are without sin. People everywhere are seeking a better life as they define it, and that always causes casualties in cultures and ecosystems. It is tragically human of us.
California is unique in that it has been hosting these seekers for many generations and has been Californicating itself since the beginning. An ironic example occured when the Anglos invaded old Los Angeles, as described in The West documentary series: https://youtu.be/fXIKFpbQjOo?t=42m6s
You could thwart it by doing things like enacting laws that required vacation home owners to occupy their properties at least six months a year, but I am certain that would open a can of worms, which in Montana I bet are big, cold red worms that bite hard.
YouTube took down the link I referred to in my last post, but here is a transcription from that scene well worth reading: PBS - THE WEST - The Barrio
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