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the episcopal church in the US is the american province of the anglican church, which is basically "Catholic-Lite". their membership is different from a white anglo saxon protestant, aka wasp, which infers a race identification. different communities.. the founding generations were mostly puritans, who later refered to themselves just as protestants.. many protestants fled england, persecution via anglican church. this is further evidence of invisible divisions within white enclaving. a southern wasp country club is white as a sheet.
back to NJ, it used to be a puritan state, there are remnants of those times via blue laws.. you'd be hard pressed to find any Johnsons, Smiths, or Schmidts left in North Jersey.. most of the Dutch, German protestants and WASPS migrated south and to the west past several decades when other "white" flight demographics such as Jews, Italians, Irish and now Hispanics moved in from the city. My point is there is still an invisible division that people don't really talk about.
New Jersey was never a Puritan state... Massachusetts was the center of Puritanism. NJ was obviously a Dutch colony and after taken over by England, West Jersey was heavily Quaker.
The Episcopal Church was officially the "The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States" it was the epitome of upper class WASP. ( And yes the Anglican Church is a bit different from the other Protestant churches and retained much of what was "Catholic", Elizabeth I threw in with the Protestant movements of Luther, Calvin et al. But this could be a whole other thread on a Religion board)I read an article about the Episcopal Church historically being the "ethnic church" of the WASP
Over the past several decades the Episcopal Church has become more diverse just as the Presbyterian, Lutheran and even ethnic Orthodox churches, in the past people become Orthodox only if they married into it, but I know several people who left Assembly of God and Southern Baptist Churches to convert to [Russian] Orthodox)
I grew up in the Episcopal Church, have been in Country Clubs in NJ and the South. I am familiar with the institutions of which you write.
You are overstating the divisions between people, it may be your experience in your family.
I hope that NJ and the USA as a whole become more like Latin America in their view of ethnicity and race. In Puerto Rico and Latin America in general, people are Puerto Rican, Urugauyan, Mexican etc. Latin America is much more diverse than most [North] Americans consider. But if you go to the Puerto Rican day Parade you will see people of very different skin tones, gingers and people with black hair waving Puerto Rican flags and celebrating their Boricua heritage together. ( I know its not perfect) I have a friend from Uruguay whose grandparents all immigrated from Poland, when she first married an American and moved to the US she thought it odd that people whose families had been here for generations referred to themselves as "Irish" or "Italian". Since her kids were born in California she considered her kids as "American" not "Uruguayan[Polish]-American.
Sort of related to previous paragraph. If you move to Orlando and your are lets say German heritage, you will have more in common with and "get" the new neighbors who are an Italian-American family from NJ than the German-American family from Wisconsin that moved into the neighborhood.
New Jersey was never a Puritan state... Massachusetts was the center of Puritanism. NJ was obviously a Dutch colony and after taken over by England, West Jersey was heavily Quaker. .
Blue laws, aka Sunday laws were enacted by Puritans. They still exist in bergen county, NJ.. there is your history.
The Episcopal Church was officially the "The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States" it was the epitome of upper class WASP. ( And yes the Anglican Church is a bit different from the other Protestant churches and retained much of what was "Catholic", Elizabeth I threw in with the Protestant movements of Luther, Calvin et al. But this could be a whole other thread on a Religion board)I read an article about the Episcopal Church historically being the "ethnic church" of the WASP
Over the past several decades the Episcopal Church has become more diverse just as the Presbyterian, Lutheran and even ethnic Orthodox churches, in the past people become Orthodox only if they married into it, but I know several people who left Assembly of God and Southern Baptist Churches to convert to [Russian] Orthodox) .
you have a real skewed sense of history.. episcopalians are not protestants. yes, they were basically "CAtholic-Lite" until the Protestant movement, but they are not Protestant, instead they are the "middle way" between protestants and Roman catholics. read your history.. protestants fled england after persecution via the church of england. the episocopal church of america is the arm of the English Anglican church.
here is an excerpt from Father Brad Callaway Dyche.
"As an Episcopal priest for 43 years and College Professor of religious studies I must contend that the Anglican/Episcopal church should not be listed among Protestant churches. In most textbooks I have read about Christianity, Anglicanism is listed as a subgroup of the Roman Catholic Church or as a fourth member of the Christian family along with Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant. The Episcopal Church no longer uses the old "Protestant" term in its official communication. Since Vatican II, its liturgy has found more kinship with Catholic traditions and their shared return to the early church understanding of Eucharist. After WWII, the Episcopal Church did have a close connection to Protestant mainline churches and Eucharist was only monthly or quarterly. Now I would say that 99% of Episcopal Churches have Eucharist as part of every Sunday service. Internationally the Anglican Roman Catholic Dialogue has found common consensus in the nature of the Eucharist and the Priesthood. There is a common belief in Real Presence in the Eucharist. The major difference is how decisions are made within the church. Of course a more recent major difference is the inclusion in the Episcopal Church of women as deacons, priests and bishops and the full inclusion of gays and lesbians within the life of the church."
Last edited by ControlJohnsons; 03-03-2016 at 01:53 PM..
I grew up in the Episcopal Church, have been in Country Clubs in NJ and the South. I am familiar with the institutions of which you write.
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i grew up in a VERY WASPY home (presbyterian), father is English/German.. i didn't know one person who attended an episcopal church, though i have since met them in college and workplace.
The fact that i never associated with anyone within the episcopal church in our private/personal lives, nor did my relatives, goes to show the enclaving within white society. I attended large national Protestant events, camps, concerts, etc growing up, never met one.
Last edited by ControlJohnsons; 03-03-2016 at 01:56 PM..
I hope that NJ and the USA as a whole become more like Latin America in their view of ethnicity and race. In Puerto Rico and Latin America in general, people are Puerto Rican, Urugauyan, Mexican etc. Latin America is much more diverse than most [North] Americans consider. But if you go to the Puerto Rican day Parade you will see people of very different skin tones, gingers and people with black hair waving Puerto Rican flags and celebrating their Boricua heritage together. ( I know its not perfect) I have a friend from Uruguay whose grandparents all immigrated from Poland, when she first married an American and moved to the US she thought it odd that people whose families had been here for generations referred to themselves as "Irish" or "Italian". Since her kids were born in California she considered her kids as "American" not "Uruguayan[Polish]-American.
Sort of related to previous paragraph. If you move to Orlando and your are lets say German heritage, you will have more in common with and "get" the new neighbors who are an Italian-American family from NJ than the German-American family from Wisconsin that moved into the neighborhood.
I agree, there is alot of room to improve race/religion relations in the USA.. and my point is it remains very divided. Your comment here supports that the separation of race and ethnicity lives on in the USA, by hoping it one day improves.
No, it's not odd that people who've lived in the USA for generations refer themselves as "Irish" or "Italian".. that was my point, the enclaving persists.
Last edited by ControlJohnsons; 03-03-2016 at 02:01 PM..
you have a real skewed sense of history.. episcopalians are not protestants. yes, they were basically "CAtholic-Lite" until the Protestant movement, but they are not Protestant, instead they are the "middle way" between protestants and Roman catholics. read your history.. protestants fled england after persecution via the church of england. the episocopal church of america is the arm of the English Anglican church.
here is an excerpt from Father Brad Callaway Dyche.
"As an Episcopal priest for 43 years and College Professor of religious studies I must contend that the Anglican/Episcopal church should not be listed among Protestant churches. In most textbooks I have read about Christianity, Anglicanism is listed as a subgroup of the Roman Catholic Church or as a fourth member of the Christian family along with Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant. The Episcopal Church no longer uses the old "Protestant" term in its official communication. Since Vatican II, its liturgy has found more kinship with Catholic traditions and their shared return to the early church understanding of Eucharist. After WWII, the Episcopal Church did have a close connection to Protestant mainline churches and Eucharist was only monthly or quarterly. Now I would say that 99% of Episcopal Churches have Eucharist as part of every Sunday service. Internationally the Anglican Roman Catholic Dialogue has found common consensus in the nature of the Eucharist and the Priesthood. There is a common belief in Real Presence in the Eucharist. The major difference is how decisions are made within the church. Of course a more recent major difference is the inclusion in the Episcopal Church of women as deacons, priests and bishops and the full inclusion of gays and lesbians within the life of the church."
I am well aware of history, and continue to learn more all the time.
Most people think of the Episcopal Church as Protestant in the US, I do agree it is not exactly Protestant it has been said it is Protestant AND Catholic. If you read my previous post I even wrote that Elizabeth I threw in with the Protestants, so you must have missed that. I agree it was/is the Via Media in fact the newsletter for the Episcopal Diocese of New Jersey was called Via Media back in the 1980s. The parish I grew up in was very much Anglo-Catholic, so I feel more at home in a Catholic Church or Orthodox than a Baptist church. Interesting aside.. at one time when there were not many Orthodox churches in America, immigrants from Orthodox countries could get permission from their bishop to take communion at an Episcopal Church, not Roman Catholic.
This thread really is not the place to discuss church history.
To bring it back to the original posting, You are the one saying that Puerto Ricans of complete European decent are not REALLY white. Then you lament the state of race relations in NJ and the entire country. You insist on separating people by ethnicity.
I am well aware of history, and continue to learn more all the time.
Most people think of the Episcopal Church as Protestant in the US, I do agree it is not exactly Protestant it has been said it is Protestant AND Catholic. If you read my previous post I even wrote that Elizabeth I threw in with the Protestants, so you must have missed that. I agree it was/is the Via Media in fact the newsletter for the Episcopal Diocese of New Jersey was called Via Media back in the 1980s. The parish I grew up in was very much Anglo-Catholic, so I feel more at home in a Catholic Church or Orthodox than a Baptist church. Interesting aside.. at one time when there were not many Orthodox churches in America, immigrants from Orthodox countries could get permission from their bishop to take communion at an Episcopal Church, not Roman Catholic.
This thread really is not the place to discuss church history.
To bring it back to the original posting, You are the one saying that Puerto Ricans of complete European decent are not REALLY white. Then you lament the state of race relations in NJ and the entire country. You insist on separating people by ethnicity.
i'm not insisting on anything, i'm speaking of my observations.. those that people such as yourself pretend don't exist within political correctness. you insisted that puerto rico was a white nation.. i expanded the conversation to point out how certain whites defined by heritage and religion enclave from other whites.. and how this entire discussion is practically moot. i wonder how a "white puerto rican" identifies himself within the various white enclaves (wasp, irish, italian, jew, etc etc) or is he/she just white. it doesn't work, does it.
I agree, there is alot of room to improve race/religion relations in the USA.. and my point is it remains very divided. Your comment here supports that the separation of race and ethnicity lives on in the USA, by hoping it one day improves.
No, it's not odd that people who've lived in the USA for generations refer themselves as "Irish" or "Italian".. that was my point, the enclaving persists.
I don't think you got my point, my Uruguayan friend thought it was odd; in Uruguay (and Argentina and Brazil for that matter) people are not hypehnated. They are Uruguayan( Argentine, Brazilian) with ancestors from wherever.
Outside the Northeast and Midwest, the enclaving is not as prevalaent. Even in suburban NJ, there are not Italian/Polish/Irish etc neighborhoods like in the Newark in in the 1920s. Growing up in Ocean County, most kids were of mixed ethnic backgrounds ( Irish/Italian, Irish/Polish etc,--still not many African Americans) Even for yourself you are Italian/British Isles descent... does grandma from the old country want you to marry within the ethnic group yes that is true, but its not like you would be disowned ( at least not that common anymore LOL)
Similarly in newer suburban areas of Southern cities like Jacksonville FL the neighborhoods are more integrated than the inner city. The enclaves now are more economic.
I watch "Walking Dead" *****SPOILER ALERT*****
there are 2 interracial couples and even a lesbian couple among the main characters... there hasnt been a big deal made about it anywhere... That shows progress
i'm not insisting on anything, i'm speaking of my observations.. those that people such as yourself pretend don't exist within political correctness. you insisted that puerto rico was a white nation.. i expanded the conversation to point out how certain whites defined by heritage and religion enclave from other whites.. and how this entire discussion is practically moot. i wonder how a "white puerto rican" identifies himself within the various white enclaves (wasp, irish, italian, jew, etc etc) or is he/she just white. it doesn't work, does it.
I NEVER claimed Puerto Rico was a white nation and I certainly did not insist on it. It is a nation ( yes I know it is part of the US, perhaps even the 51st state someday) of mixed culture of European, African and Native American cultures. But one can not deny that there are Puerto Ricans who are white and without seeing their name or hearing them speak you could not tell if they were from Puerto Rico or Birmingham, England.
A white Puerto Rican would identify himself in any white enclave as Puerto Rican. Just as an Italian would be an Italian, an Irish person would be Irish etc However with this being said we should identify as a person
I have a degree in Spanish. I speak the language fluently, have read the literature, have friends who are from Puerto Rico, even dated Puerto Ricans and Cubans( should I say "some of my best friends are Puerto Rican" to fill a cliche) I have a good understanding of the culture of not only PR but much of Latin America and to a lesser extent Spain. So don't learn me about Puerto Rico
Outside the Northeast and Midwest, the enclaving is not as prevalaent. Even in suburban NJ, there are not Italian/Polish/Irish etc neighborhoods like in the Newark in in the 1920s. Growing up in Ocean County, most kids were of mixed ethnic backgrounds ( Irish/Italian, Irish/Polish etc,--still not many African Americans) Even for yourself you are Italian/British Isles descent... does grandma from the old country want you to marry within the ethnic group yes that is true, but its not like you would be disowned ( at least not that common anymore LOL)
Similarly in newer suburban areas of Southern cities like Jacksonville FL the neighborhoods are more integrated than the inner city. The enclaves now are more economic.
I watch "Walking Dead" *****SPOILER ALERT*****
there are 2 interracial couples and even a lesbian couple among the main characters... there hasnt been a big deal made about it anywhere... That shows progress
we all get along to a certain degree, to the extent of what society requires us to do, ie comingle with other parents for school, activities etc.. neighborly friendship, etc etc.... but my point is, there is invisible divison to this day within heritage/race and religion in areas related to closed personal/private lives.. you may deny it, but most irish people generally associate with other irish, italians with italians, greeks with greeks, koreans with koreans, chinese with chinese, domincans with dominicans, haitans with haitans, puerto ricans with puerto ricans, etc etc.. there are obviously personal relationships outside, but they are minority compared to their general associations. yes, when i visit my mother's side of the family, majority there are italians.. when i visit my father's side, 90% of the people at the party are wasps. it's interesting that both sides don't really associate with each other, last time they were all in the same room was my wedding 15 years ago.
i'm for progress, i'm simply stating the state of race in the country, as much as you'd like to deny them.. they persist. shows like walking dead may be progressive, but they don't generally reflect realitiy.. ie zombies.
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