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Most if not all of your 266 posts concern some sort of rant about how New Jersey is overtaxed and that our taxes fund "bloated government programs," yet you would preserve the single biggest driver of high property taxes in NJ. How can you possibly argue that it makes sense to have 600+ school districts, each with 3-4 administrators making six figure salaries? Each with a standalone office and support staff? Most with separate purchasing agreements and contracts with tens of thousands of different vendors. It's the definition of insanity.
You have read the bulk of my 266 posts? Impressive. Sad, but impressive. Seems you have a reading comprehension issue though. I said 2x now "there is room for consolidation". That would indicate i'm NOT arguing in favor of 600+ school districts. Simply, my position is in general, local > centralized when it comes to schooling. Again, that does not mean consolidation is not warranted. The two are not mutually exclusive up to a point.
Finally, property tax via school taxes is hardly the main driver of overtaxation in NJ, but rather a contributor to it. So just doing the consolidation we BOTH AGREE on is not going to move the needle that much although it would help. The main taxation relative to other states would be state income taxes.
You have read the bulk of my 266 posts? Impressive. Sad, but impressive.
You only post in the NJ forum
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Originally Posted by RonaldusMagnus
I said 2x now "there is room for consolidation". That would indicate i'm NOT arguing in favor of 600+ school districts. Simply, my position is in general, local > centralized when it comes to schooling. Again, that does not mean consolidation is not warranted. The two are not mutually exclusive up to a point.
As I pointed out to Tahiti, the cute little "shared services agreements" that all the rage these days are nothing but window dressing. Even if we went from 600 school districts to 300, it would be the same thing-window dressing. County level school districts work in the majority of the country, New Jersey would be no different.
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Originally Posted by RonaldusMagnus
Finally, property tax via school taxes is hardly the main driver of overtaxation in NJ, but rather a contributor to it.
You've GOT to be kidding me Just to pull an example out of the air, school tax in East Windsor Township is 62.5% of the property tax bill!!! Municipal and County taxes COMBINED only amount to HALF of the school tax portion.
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Originally Posted by RonaldusMagnus
So just doing the consolidation we BOTH AGREE on is not going to move the needle that much although it would help.
21 County school districts would move the needle quite a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonaldusMagnus
The main taxation relative to other states would be state income taxes.
Not sure about you, but property taxes take the biggest chunk out of my personal pie, so those are the ones I'm most passionate about lowering.
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Originally Posted by RonaldusMagnus
As you were.
Look, I get it, you're against county districts because you don't want your kids going to school with those kids. The reality is nothing would change. In Essex County kids in Newark would still go to Weequahic, West Side, Barringer, etc...and kids in Millburn would still go to Millburn High School. The difference is that there would be one Superintendent, School Board, etc...overseeing them both instead of 23+ bleeding us all dry.
Most if not all of your 266 posts concern some sort of rant about how New Jersey is overtaxed and that our taxes fund "bloated government programs," yet you would preserve the single biggest driver of high property taxes in NJ. How can you possibly argue that it makes sense to have 600+ school districts, each with 3-4 administrators making six figure salaries? Each with a standalone office and support staff? Most with separate purchasing agreements and contracts with tens of thousands of different vendors. It's the definition of insanity.
County school systems seem to serve some nearby states quite well. I'm very much in favor of consolidation. NJ has by far the most municipalities relative to the size of the state. I believe Connecticut has experienced only a handful of incorporations in the last century and a half, while NJ has had hundreds. Literally every other state does it differently than here...yet some think that we must have got it right somehow.
Absolutely UNTRUE. Been looking to move and options are NJ, Westchester, CT and narrowed recently to NJ thus the majority of posts here lately.
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You've GOT to be kidding me Just to pull an example out of the air, school tax in East Windsor Township is 62.5% of the property tax bill!!! Municipal and County taxes COMBINED only amount to HALF of the school tax portion.
Again you didn't read or comprehend my statement. I never said property taxes weren't mostly comprised of school tax.
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Not sure about you, but property taxes take the biggest chunk out of my personal pie, so those are the ones I'm most passionate about lowering.
Using your example of 62.5% of a property tax bill being comprised of school taxes at face value. Lets also assume you get the consolidation you want. Some quick math: Lets say your property tax bill is $15k. 62.5% of 15k is $9,375 for school taxes. Your consolidation chops what off that? Let me be ridiculously generous and say 1/3 comes off of that, that is $3,125/yr. under the most extreme assumptions. So when I say it is not going to move the needle that much, yes that is accurate bc in reality your not going to get 1/3 savings, it will be much less.
Quote:
Look, I get it, you're against county districts because you don't want your kids going to school with those kids. The reality is nothing would change. In Essex County kids in Newark would still go to Weequahic, West Side, Barringer, etc...and kids in Millburn would still go to Millburn High School. The difference is that there would be one Superintendent, School Board, etc...overseeing them both instead of 23+ bleeding us all dry.
Again your reading something into my post that is simply not there. My kids are 1 & 3 yrs old, not even in school yet. I've lived my whole life and was schooled in the boroughs of NYC, your talking to the wrong person if you think I don't want my kids with "those kids". All I want is a rock solid school system. I have no qualms with your consolidation points about superintendent/school board etc. My ONLY position was a more generalized one, that schooling IN GENERAL is better administered at a local level. This is not at odds with your position but rather relative to a gargantuan top down approach, like for example NYC.
Your looking for an argument where there is none. This all started with my response to a post on additional taxes needed to fund infrastructure to which I responded people in the northeast (NJ) already feel taxed up the wazzoo so the idea that they would be against more taxes on top of the already "worst in the nation" is not far fetched.
565 municipalities, many of which have less than 1000 people and are completely surrounded by other towns.
600+ School districts, each with their own Superintendent, Business Administrator, office, and miscellaneous support staff.
550 Law enforcement agencies, each with a Chief/Public Safety Director (and some with both).
725 Separate fire departments.
21 County governments that duplicate practically all of the services of the towns within them.
You're trying to change a system that's been in place for what 150yrs? Some towns are starting to consolidate particularly with law enforcement. but it's going to take time and a willingness of people to accept less "local" rule.
As far as the fire departments, most are volunteer, the towns buy and own the trucks but the firehouses are owned by the fire dept. I read an article around 1998 that said there were more firetrucks in Bergen County than there was in NYC, and EVERY town had to have a 100ft+ aerial ladder truck. Although the highest building might be 60ft. You're dealing with a very vocal group of volunteers, that are voters. They want the shiny truck with the bells and whistles and the aerial ladder. If you use the argument there is one 3 miles away in the next town, the counter is along the lines of, "It will take longer to get there, what is the price of a human life worth?"
I agree most county governments duplicate a lot of the services of the towns within them, to consolidate things you'd have to absorb a lot of the local municipal employees and I'm sure there would be hundreds of complaints that the new county road dept pays more attention to XXX town than they do to YYY town.
As I said you're trying to change something well over 100 yrs old, and I'm sure some of the towns were formed because the the people on the north side of town felt slighted by the people in power on the south side. Back when all you had was a general store and a few street signs it didn't really matter.
I agree that North jersey needs better transit. The question is how to do it.
It seems very limited, if you wanted to go to the track on a Tuesday, forget it. It seems some events aren't even serviced by the train just bus service. To service American Dream it would really have to run a regular schedule, this way both employees and patrons could use it.
I'm in a town with 44,000 people. It isn't any cheaper. Consolidation isn't the panacea people think it is. County-wide schools... people in Camden, Mercer, Essex, Passaic, and Union counties are going to very much frown upon that.
I'm in a town with 44,000 people. It isn't any cheaper. Consolidation isn't the panacea people think it is. County-wide schools... people in Camden, Mercer, Essex, Passaic, and Union counties are going to very much frown upon that.
Yup.
I have said before though that I think we can afford to consolidate some police and fire departments. It doesn't even have to be county consolidation, just combining 2 or 3 municipalities to one force. Cranford and Westfield for example. Or Garwood, Westfield, and Cranford. Three rather small, pretty safe, and rather uneventful towns. Something like this. But schools, honestly that is a different story.
It seems very limited, if you wanted to go to the track on a Tuesday, forget it. It seems some events aren't even serviced by the train just bus service. To service American Dream it would really have to run a regular schedule, this way both employees and patrons could use it.
It is very limited because there are not enough events to warrant the service. It would not be difficult to ramp up the service.
I have said before though that I think we can afford to consolidate some police and fire departments. It doesn't even have to be county consolidation, just combining 2 or 3 municipalities to one force. Cranford and Westfield for example. Or Garwood, Westfield, and Cranford. Three rather small, pretty safe, and rather uneventful towns. Something like this. But schools, honestly that is a different story.
I agree... and school districts could also be consolidated. Westfield / Cranford / Millburn could become a unified school district (Westfordmil unified school district or WUSD?) and save taxpayers money by having it be less "top heavy". No need to pay salaries to several superintendents or assistant superintendents. You wouldn't need to cut the number of teachers or school staff either since they'd remain at their schools.
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Just to pull an example out of the air, school tax in East Windsor Township is 62.5% of the property tax bill!!! Municipal and County taxes COMBINED only amount to HALF of the school tax portion. 
Look, I get it, you're against county districts because you don't want your kids going to school with those kids. The reality is nothing would change. In Essex County kids in Newark would still go to Weequahic, West Side, Barringer, etc...and kids in Millburn would still go to Millburn High School. The difference is that there would be one Superintendent, School Board, etc...overseeing them both instead of 23+ bleeding us all dry.
