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"The tax payer is unhappy because their taxes keep going up at a much greater rate than median incomes, and they have little to show for it."
The real problem is middle class income and benefits have deteriorated and that is the problem you need to deal with. Attacking teachers and their salaries are only going to lower our middle class salaries. We will be off to a race to the bottom. More middle class have lost there jobs, more have taken a cut in pay to save their fellow workers whats next fire those with experience and higher new. Once you have teachers included it will be back to you, you did the job of two lets get rid of one more you can handle doing the job of three because it is all about the bottom line. The only problem with that is (remember Annaheim Insurance as to why they had to raise premiums so their profits would stay the same, or lets look what the banks are doing or the credit card companies), the bottom line is about the ones on top keeping their profits. Now your company may not be able to raise prices but they sure can cut your salaries, benefits pensions and your job. So instead of sticking together lets stick it to the teachers so they can feel the pain like we do.
Either way, the teachers union is no friend of the tax payer.
No, but they didn't cause any of New Jersey's problems, per se. Perhaps they've made them a bit more difficult to solve, at worst.
This really all comes back to Abbott and 31 districts getting nearly all of the state's revenue set for education. The NJEA (for some strange reason) supports this, but they didn't create the situation. An activist Supreme Court did. Unfortunately, the school funding issue is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that nobody is talking about. You can make teachers take all the wage freezes you'd like, but you're not fixing the problem. All of the money my town sends to Trenton is still going to Newark instead of coming back here to reduce our property taxes. That is because of Abbott.
Fix Abbott, equalize state aid (give a little bit extra to the cities, if you'd like) and suburban tax rates go down 50% overnight. Teachers' salaries are higher here than in other states, but not high enough to justify our property tax rates being more than double many other states' average rates. It's all in the funding formula, and it's somerthing NO Democrat - and unfortunately this Republican - will touch. As long as Trenton is controlled by people in the legislature FROM the Abbott districts (the beneficiaries of OUR money) this will not change.
GS37,
Excellent post.
Christie has put everyone in a frenzy with half truths wanting the everyday person who doesn't have all the information except their taxes go up every year and their pay isn't to believe these half truths. Tell me how teachers who take a pay freeze this year because the state hasn't enough money solves the problem. What happens next year are we all of sudden going to be able to increase the amount to our schools is there going to be enough money to fund the pensions that the gov't took. Why are teachers the one expected to make up the difference..
What then more cuts more freezes. Have you not noticed either your school cuts teachers and activities to your children or your taxes are raised or both. It doesn't just affect the teachers. Gee all while Christie is still getting paid full salary as is his cabinet, with pensions which I haven't heard him say he is contributing anything. With health care after 4 years of service for the rest of his life. Then complain some more about your property tax while you watch those making the real money of $400,000 laugh at you who is stuck yet with pay freezes, property tax increases, and school cuts. Sounds fair to me. Wake up people Christie is destoying the middle class and we are only going to have ourselves to blame while the rich get richer and the middle class become poor.
No, but they didn't cause any of New Jersey's problems, per se. Perhaps they've made them a bit more difficult to solve, at worst.
This really all comes back to Abbott and 31 districts getting nearly all of the state's revenue set for education. The NJEA (for some strange reason) supports this, but they didn't create the situation.
It's not at all strange that they support it. Their agenda is extracting as much revenue as possible out of as many tax payers as possible, because that's how their members get paid.
Usually, one constraint on spending is that beyond a certain level, the tax payers simply can't afford it any more. For example, people living in Newark can not generally afford the 15,000 per child per year it costs to run their schools. A system like Abbott removes this constraint.
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An activist Supreme Court did. Unfortunately, the school funding issue is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that nobody is talking about. You can make teachers take all the wage freezes you'd like, but you're not fixing the problem.
I think the Abbott issue has been beaten to death here actually. But it's only part of the problem.
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All of the money my town sends to Trenton is still going to Newark instead of coming back here to reduce our property taxes. That is because of Abbott.
Fix Abbott, equalize state aid
That's basically another way of saying that schools should be funded by state income tax instead of property tax. I think this would ultimately result in lower property taxes but higher income taxes.
The cause of taxes is ultimately spending. I don't think a different redistribution system will fix it (I suspect moving towards state funding would make districts that are run more efficiently now less so)
I don't really agree with the idea that "your town" is sending money to trenton and not getting it back. What's closer to the truth is that a handful of high income earners in your town are bankrolling the Abbott districts. Most tax revenue comes from top income earners. I don't think people who live in the same town as the top income earners have any more right to pick their pockets than those who live in Abbott districts.
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(give a little bit extra to the cities, if you'd like) and suburban tax rates go down 50% overnight. Teachers' salaries are higher here than in other states, but not high enough to justify our property tax rates being more than double many other states' average rates. It's all in the funding formula, and it's somerthing NO Democrat - and unfortunately this Republican - will touch. As long as Trenton is controlled by people in the legislature FROM the Abbott districts (the beneficiaries of OUR money) this will not change.
The supreme court decision amounts to legislation, so the legislature can't really do anything about it short of appointing judges who are more oriented towards judicial restraint.
GS37,
Excellent post.
Christie has put everyone in a frenzy with half truths wanting the everyday person who doesn't have all the information except their taxes go up every year and their pay isn't to believe these half truths. Tell me how teachers who take a pay freeze this year because the state hasn't enough money solves the problem. What happens next year are we all of sudden going to be able to increase the amount to our schools is there going to be enough money to fund the pensions that the gov't took. Why are teachers the one expected to make up the difference..
What then more cuts more freezes. Have you not noticed either your school cuts teachers and activities to your children or your taxes are raised or both. It doesn't just affect the teachers. Gee all while Christie is still getting paid full salary as is his cabinet, with pensions which I haven't heard him say he is contributing anything. With health care after 4 years of service for the rest of his life. Then complain some more about your property tax while you watch those making the real money of $400,000 laugh at you who is stuck yet with pay freezes, property tax increases, and school cuts. Sounds fair to me. Wake up people Christie is destoying the middle class and we are only going to have ourselves to blame while the rich get richer and the middle class become poor.
When I run into a cash flow problem in my life I reduce my spending. I don't continue spending fearing that my cutting back will be permanent.
You seem to believe you can tax wealth at any rate and it won't move. Well you are wrong. There is a rate of taxation that will cause people to leave the state. We have reached that level. It doesn't make sense to accelerate it. N.J. loses $70B in wealth during five years as residents depart | - NJ.com
This is a formula guaranteed to produce a race ot the bottom.
"The tax payer is unhappy because their taxes keep going up at a much greater rate than median incomes, and they have little to show for it."
The real problem is middle class income and benefits have deteriorated and that is the problem you need to deal with.
I don't believe this is true. The economy has grown and median incomes increased, not decreased over the last decade. The problem is, property taxes went up faster than incomes. Also, house prices went through the roof. Health insurance gets more expensive.
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Attacking teachers and their salaries are only going to lower our middle class salaries. We will be off to a race to the bottom.
Who is proposing "attacking teachers and their salaries" ? I don't think that's really part of the solution. I don't think it's necessary or desirable to to have tax revenue increase faster than median salaries. I think it's possible to clamp down on such growth without "attacking" anyone.
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More middle class have lost there jobs, more have taken a cut in pay to save their fellow workers whats next fire those with experience and higher new. Once you have teachers included it will be back to you, you did the job of two lets get rid of one more you can handle doing the job of three because it is all about the bottom line
You've got this completely wrong. Economic growth results in lower unemployment. If you want to reduce unemployment, grow the economy. I would much rather be laid off in a growing economy than laid off in a shrinking one. If growing the economy requires laying off some workers, those laid off workers will find jobs provided the economy really grows. On the other hand, choke the economy by soaking the rich and the middle class, and there just won't be any private sector employers around any more. And who is going to pay those high taxes if there are no private sector workers ?
shorebaby- you are misinterpreting the article about wealth leaving NJ. The wealth he was referring to was senior citizens upon retirement not individuals making above $400k. The main issue was not wealth leaving but that there was not a significant number of people coming in to replace the wealth of the seniors that leave.
Another thing everyone compares NJ income tax to Pennsylvania and thinks NJ's is higher but a family of 4 pays less income tax in NJ in comparison to Pa. up until they make $170,000.00.
shorebaby- you are misinterpreting the article about wealth leaving NJ. The wealth he was referring to was senior citizens upon retirement not individuals making above $400k. The main issue was not wealth leaving but that there was not a significant number of people coming in to replace the wealth of the seniors that leave.
Another thing everyone compares NJ income tax to Pennsylvania and thinks NJ's is higher but a family of 4 pays less income tax in NJ in comparison to Pa. up until they make $170,000.00.
Well that is not accurate. From the article:
"Those who left were also more likely to be older and more educated, with jobs as entrepreneurs or in the finance and professional industries, the study found. Those replacing them tended to hold management or support jobs in the manufacturing industry. The study analyzed data from three main sources: The Federal Reserve’s Survey on Consumer Finances, the Census Bureau and the Internal Revenue Service."
It doesn't really matter who they are what does matter is the articles conclusion that tax policy was a reason for them leaving and not being replaced. Also it is people making over $170,000 who are leaving which is most alarming since they pay most of the taxes. Again from the article.
"Findings from the Boston College report show that about 302,780 households left New Jersey between 2004 and 2008, only slightly lower than the 323,350 households that moved into the state. However, the average net worth of the departing households was about 70 percent higher, at $618,330."
Unlike you who wants cut to the bone and don't raise taxes I'm willing to pay that tax increase because I still want some of these services I want my roads plowed, I want my children and my neighbors children to be educated I want the police protecting me. While I do think there are cuts that can be made I also know that there is only so much cutting you can do.... you can only survive not "live" on peanut butter and jelly for so long I know that it is only with everyone working that our economy will turn around and it is only when people are working that my job and your job will become more secure and better. Do some of you listen to your self you are cheering on people losing their jobs and losing benefits instead of hoping that this down hill spiral this country is on doesn't continue and hoping that everyone stays employed with good benefits so that your job isn't in jeopardy becomes more secure and that your benefits can improve. Cut cut cut all you want you act like all this cutting will not have an effect on you. Cut cut cut so no one is working and only the rich can survive. Lets see where that gets us.
The public unions in new jersey are corrupt & they own the legislature just like in ca.
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