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So I guess you dont consider Police or Firemen "public servants" either? They are not elected or appointed as well.
You have shown me nothing flawed about my logic, you have merely said "it is flawed". The guy at McDonalds does work for me, and I minored in economics, so what does that have to do with anything. If the patrons dont like the service, the McDonald's closes, and the worker is out of a job. Not so with the teachers. We can be as dissatisfied as humanly possible, and all we can do is hope that enough people wake up and elect someone to do something about it. The process takes far too long to be effective IMHO.
As for me, I am employed by my patients directly. I provide a service and I bill their insurance company. If their insurance company does not pay, I bill the patient directly. I wish it were that way for schools. What is the NJEA afraid of? Let me keep my tax dollars and use them toward the school and teachers of my choice. I cant think of anything more American than that! I have always believed in free market economics, and the public education system is it's antithesis.
Well I work for the govt. and I think I'm a public servant. I "protect and serve", you know who- "THE PUBLIC". Maybe it's me but if you get paid with the publics money you work for the public. Maybe I should go back to school. I agree with your statement.
It would be very different than the scenario here if the entire system was based on private enterprise.
Do you have anything on which to base this statement? Or is that just your opinion based on your feelings?
I have at least worked in a school of choice and seen what happens to the admissions process.
As for the cost savings, lets look at the oldest voucher program in the US.
"Under the state formula for paying for school vouchers, Milwaukee residents pay more in property taxes for each student who uses a voucher than for each student who attends MPS"
Yes, let me state that again. Due to just the voucher program property taxes went up an additional $7.6 million in 2006.
So are you still for schools of choice if they would raise taxes as has happened in Milwaukee?
Assuming you are still in favor how do you think the application process will go? The best schools in this state do have a limited number of seats for example High Tech can only hold 270 kids. So if we have a voucher program and it is now open to everyone in the state how would you choose who can go? What about Holmdel high, the best public high school in Monmouth Co? Would they bump their township kids for better students from neighboring towns? Would private schools then be held to the same requirements for testing and graduation as public schools (since they currently are not)?
Also many private schools (especially in DC) are choosing not to participate if they cannot be highly selective about who can go to their school meaning they do not want to do a lottery or have to accept less than stellar students.
Do you have anything on which to base this statement? Or is that just your opinion based on your feelings?
I base it on the fact that there would be a lot more competition. McNair Academy in JC boasts being one of the top schools in the state. Fine. That's not too hard to do when you can cherry pick the top students in the city. But now, what if there are 50 McNair's? That changes the whole playing field. Now they have to compete for not only the best students, BUT THE BEST TEACHERS as well. A free market can RAISE some teachers salaries too, but at least they will be the ones who have EARNED it. Not just had it mandated by the state.
Quote:
I have at least worked in a school of choice and seen what happens to the admissions process.
As for the cost savings, lets look at the oldest voucher program in the US.
"Under the state formula for paying for school vouchers, Milwaukee residents pay more in property taxes for each student who uses a voucher than for each student who attends MPS"
Yes, let me state that again. Due to just the voucher program property taxes went up an additional $7.6 million in 2006.
So are you still for schools of choice if they would raise taxes as has happened in Milwaukee?
Assuming you are still in favor how do you think the application process will go? The best schools in this state do have a limited number of seats for example High Tech can only hold 270 kids. So if we have a voucher program and it is now open to everyone in the state how would you choose who can go? What about Holmdel high, the best public high school in Monmouth Co? Would they bump their township kids for better students from neighboring towns? Would private schools then be held to the same requirements for testing and graduation as public schools (since they currently are not)?
Then the state of Wisconsin screwed up when writing the formula. That can easily be fixed by not allowing the vouchers to be for more money than the child would cost in the public school. We know how much it costs per child in the NJ school districts, so I dont know what Wisconsin's problem is. Academia, alone is not the only factor. If Holmdel High is paying a lot for the best teachers, they are going to have to charge more for admission. Some people may not choose to go there based on that alone. If enough people decide that, Holmdel will have to lower it's tuition. These are simple market forces. Free markets have built in checks and balances.
Well I work for the govt. and I think I'm a public servant. I "protect and serve", you know who- "THE PUBLIC". Maybe it's me but if you get paid with the publics money you work for the public. Maybe I should go back to school. I agree with your statement.
Thank you for your service. I know it is not an easy job.
I base it on the fact that there would be a lot more competition. McNair Academy in JC boasts being one of the top schools in the state. Fine. That's not too hard to do when you can cherry pick the top students in the city. But now, what if there are 50 McNair's? That changes the whole playing field. Now they have to compete for not only the best students, BUT THE BEST TEACHERS as well. A free market can RAISE some teachers salaries too, but at least they will be the ones who have EARNED it. Not just had it mandated by the state.
Then the state of Wisconsin screwed up when writing the formula. That can easily be fixed by not allowing the vouchers to be for more money than the child would cost in the public school. We know how much it costs per child in the NJ school districts, so I dont know what Wisconsin's problem is. Academia, alone is not the only factor. If Holmdel High is paying a lot for the best teachers, they are going to have to charge more for admission. Some people may not choose to go there based on that alone. If enough people decide that, Holmdel will have to lower it's tuition. These are simple market forces. Free markets have built in checks and balances.
What are you talking about?
Vouchers for public schools mean that there is no tuition. Therefore EVERYONE would want to go to Holmdel or High Tech or Chatham since there is no cost. They can afford to be incredibly selective at that point.
Or are you suggesting that the vouchers will be less than what is currently being spent per child? If that is the case the best teachers will go to the private schools which are allowed to charge additional tuition on top of the voucher. That would certainly level the playing field of all the public schools, by increasing class size, reducing teachers, cutting programs etc. Unfortunately it would completely ruin the public education system here in NJ.
How can you talk about the free market and education and not draw analogies to college admissions? The price of college continues to grow far ahead of inflation, selection has become more and more strict for the best schools and the admissions process more and more intense.
So which is it? Because the free market has given us amazing colleges that cost $200k before you are done with cut throat admissions. Why wouldn't that happen in high schools too?
Vouchers for public schools mean that there is no tuition. Therefore EVERYONE would want to go to Holmdel or High Tech or Chatham since there is no cost. They can afford to be incredibly selective at that point.
Or are you suggesting that the vouchers will be less than what is currently being spent per child? If that is the case the best teachers will go to the private schools which are allowed to charge additional tuition on top of the voucher. That would certainly level the playing field of all the public schools, by increasing class size, reducing teachers, cutting programs etc. Unfortunately it would completely ruin the public education system here in NJ.
How can you talk about the free market and education and not draw analogies to college admissions? The price of college continues to grow far ahead of inflation, selection has become more and more strict for the best schools and the admissions process more and more intense.
So which is it? Because the free market has given us amazing colleges that cost $200k before you are done with cut throat admissions. Why wouldn't that happen in high schools too?
It would, at SOME high schools. Again, it goes back to supply and demand. There are a lot more elementary and high schools than there are colleges. Make it easier to open new schools, and you are all set. Have strict criteria of course, but remove the bureaucracy.
You talk about ruining the public education system as if thats a bad thing. lol.
It would, at SOME high schools. Again, it goes back to supply and demand. There are a lot more elementary and high schools than there are colleges. Make it easier to open new schools, and you are all set. Have strict criteria of course, but remove the bureaucracy.
You talk about ruining the public education system as if thats a bad thing. lol.
You just mention McNair and then say the ruining public education system would be ok.
There maybe more public schools than there are colleges but there are significantly more students to be served.
You think there will be LESS bureaucracy? Based on what? Who is going to manage the voucher system? Who is going to make sure that the extreme amounts of fraud that has happened in Florida and Milwaukee do not happen here? Who is going to make sure that private schools are held to the same standards as public schools? Unless you are suggesting the taxpayers money can go to unaccredited schools with no regulations to be spent however anyone sees fit?
Your "say" is that same as mine (a taxpayer and a teacher) no more or less. Your vote. I do not work for you. I work for a board of education. I was hired by them to complete a service. The board of ed is who works for you, since you (and I ) vote for them. If you are not content with the job being done (including how money is spent) come join us at the voting booth this April 20th. I am also not pleased with how tax dollars are spend, so I will be there as well.
To say that I, the teacher, work for you is equivalent to going to McDonalds and telling the kid behind the counter that he works for you since your money is used to pay his salary. Do you really think that is the case?
Yeah, pretty much. Of course they're officially working for their employer, but they're also working for the customers. They are there to serve the customers. I'm paying them to serve me food. If I'm not satisfied with the food and or service, I can take my money elsewhere. This isn't the case with teachers. Sure, they aren't officially working for the taxpayers, but where're paying their salaries. This is pretty much the same exact argument AnesthesiaMD is making.
I pay taxes too. Should I then consider myself self employed? Of course not because that is flawed logic. Your logic is also fundamentally flawed.
I am truly sorry that you do not understand it but if you think the guy at McDonalds works for YOU specifically than you do not understand economics or business.
Teachers are not public servants since we are not elected or appointed.
If I assume you are a doctor and you are employed on staff at a hospital. Who is your employer, the hospital or the person on whom you are practicing? If it is a public funded hospital does that then make me your employer and not the hospital, or your patients?
I do not wonder why people are angry or voted for Governor Christie. I also do not wonder why people can have such strong and yet uninformed opinions since I know it is all part of human nature. All of us tend to react very strongly under stress, nothing new there.
You missed the point. If I don't get the service I like at McDonalds I will spend my money some where else. We are held hostage by the teachers union. If we don't like our public school we have no freedom to choose a school that meets our needs.
By the way, all public employees are by definition employed by the public. Therefore you do work for us.
You just mention McNair and then say the ruining public education system would be ok.
There maybe more public schools than there are colleges but there are significantly more students to be served.
You think there will be LESS bureaucracy? Based on what? Who is going to manage the voucher system? Who is going to make sure that the extreme amounts of fraud that has happened in Florida and Milwaukee do not happen here? Who is going to make sure that private schools are held to the same standards as public schools? Unless you are suggesting the taxpayers money can go to unaccredited schools with no regulations to be spent however anyone sees fit?
I'm not familiar with the voucher system, but I can attest to the fact that there is fraud and waste in the public school system. One of the key elephants in the room is tenure.
There aren't very many professions where you could be terrible at your job, or simply refuse to do your job, and yet still be able to keep your job! But teachers are the exception to this rule. Not only can terrible teachers keep their jobs, but they get a pay raise, excellent benefits, and tons of vacation time per year. Now of course, there are many wonderful teachers in our public schools, and a majority of them work hard. But unfortunately tenure often screws over the good teachers and protect the bad teachers. I'm seeing this happen in my town now. Some excellent teachers are being let go while some not so good teachers get to keep their jobs. This is just plain wrong.
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. Maybe I should go back to school. I agree with your statement.
lol.
