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Why should NJ pay to facilitate the commute of people in PA, going clear through NJ, into NYC? Transit itself is a money loser. The only reason to pay for it is to harvest the economic out put of the commuters (primarily in the form of taxes), either where they live or where they work. So this wouldn't pay for NJ.
But for NYS to get people to live upstate and commute to NYC, it makes good sense. The state would collect all the taxes, both primary (from the worker themself), and secondary, (from the taxes economic activity they create both where the live and work.) At that point the investment might be worthwhile. And by diverting population growth from out of state, to in state, they could push development upstate, where it's needed. Because if the commuting patterns rotated upstate from west into NJ, you'd likely start seeing business move upstate (to take advantage of lower costs.)
I think part of the reason is that the "upstate" NY areas that are within reasonable extreme commuting distance are semi-rural (OC, Catskills, Hudson Valley), or abounded with large nature parks. The ones that are postindustrial like Buffalo are too far away. It would be more challenging and hence more expensive for developers like Toll Bros, Hovanian, Beazer to acquire large tracts of land in NYS to house middle class commuters. PA seems to be more accommodating to developers given the large growth in residential communities in the eastern part of the state.
Maybe there could be some way to speed up the commute from Kingston and Newburgh and give them direct access to midtown and downtown NYC since these were once vibrant cities with pre-existing infrastructure. It's hard to envision massive residential and transit development beyond those places.
Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 07-31-2017 at 10:37 AM..
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On the east and west sides of the Hudson north of Poughkeepsie and Newburgh, there are vast amounts of undeveloped land that is not parkland (likely still agricultural.) There are existing rail lines on either side of the river that could be upgraded to high speed commuter lines. New stations could be built and/or existing ones upgraded. These could run express trains into both GCT and Penn Station. At the upstate station, east/west light rail feeder lines could run into the express stations, which would be much cheaper to build than downstate would be, because they'd run through largely empty land.
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On the east and west sides of the Hudson north of Poughkeepsie and Newburgh, there are vast amounts of undeveloped land that is not parkland (likely still agricultural.) There are existing rail lines on either side of the river that could be upgraded to high speed commuter lines.
If those vast amounts of land were enough to drive large scale residential development in OC and northern Dutchess, and easy enough to get permitted, they would have been developed by now (or at least be on the way), and selling for attractive prices. There is already the MNR service to Poughkeepsie with a ferry to Beacon MNR from Newburgh. That is much better than the transit options to PA, plus there is the I87 and Taconic. When I checked in Trulia, similar houses to ones where the people mentioned in the story were selling for >$500K (eg, LaGrange), which is well over the budget of extreme commuters.
Nothing new here. Back in the '90's I did a contract at the NYC BoE in Brooklyn. They had people commuting there from the Poconos.
I always thought the MTA should build a high speed commuter line up into the lower reaches of upstate. They could piggyback on the (what I'm sure are underutilized) Amtrack line going up the east side of the Hudson. There's a lot of farmland up there that could be turned into very nice suburbs.
Which is exactly why the people in the lower Hudson Valley would block new commuter lines, if the MTA could even get the money together to do this. Why should their quality of life be destroyed for NYC? Why should their environment be ruined because of NYC?
If NYC has population overflow those people can leave the region or the city could further developer underutilized areas (South Bronx, Jamaica, East New York, etc).
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On the east and west sides of the Hudson north of Poughkeepsie and Newburgh, there are vast amounts of undeveloped land that is not parkland (likely still agricultural.) There are existing rail lines on either side of the river that could be upgraded to high speed commuter lines. New stations could be built and/or existing ones upgraded. These could run express trains into both GCT and Penn Station. At the upstate station, east/west light rail feeder lines could run into the express stations, which would be much cheaper to build than downstate would be, because they'd run through largely empty land.
Are we speaking of the same MTA? Or an alternative universe MTA?
Even in LI, the electrification of the LIRR only goes to Babylon. The communities further east in Suffolf did not want dense development so they did not allow electrified serve to go further.
Similarly those areas upstate would never allow additional MTA service, and that is service the current MTA cannot afford to expand.
The current MTA is barely functioning and definitely not about to undertake any major new projects.
If the trend continues, PA could flip away from the populists sooner.
You actually meant to say Americans.
And NYers took over the Poconos years ago, and are still coming en masse due to the NYCHA Housing Choice Voucher program.
All the homeowners in the region got stuck with the bill for all the new schools, teacher salaries and pensions, while all the NYers rent and pay no tax for their numerous children.
80k houses have tax bills that are 9k a year. the entire housing market in the region is destroyed.
Port Jervis and Middletown are much cheaper in terms of housing and property taxes than the Poconos, and they have the added benefit of cheaper utilities and Metro North service.
And we cannot include Pocono Country Place into the discussion because those 50k homes are essentially a privately owned housing project.
And NYers took over the Poconos years ago, and are still coming en masse due to the NYCHA Housing Choice Voucher program.
All the homeowners in the region got stuck with the bill for all the new schools, teacher salaries and pensions, while all the NYers rent and pay no tax for their numerous children.
80k houses have tax bills that are 9k a year. the entire housing market in the region is destroyed.
That's what relatively cheap real estate does, except for the part about destroying the housing market.
populists is a racist code word for christian americans. it's not as clever or covert as you seem to think it is.
Since when was populism used as an adjective for religious beliefs? And what does religion have to do with race? James Martin is a Christian American, but not a populist. So was Avery Dulles, David Haas, Brian Marsh etc.
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