Former marine subdues menacing man on train (New York, Webster: mayor, ethnicity)
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What do you mean? Either the nature of the threat was physical or verbal. Why do we have to wait and see when there's video/witnesses?
Was the Marine initally phyiscally attacked to the point where he thought he was going to lose his life? If not, then why did he feel the need to kill?
You write that the threat was verbal, but we know that Penny states that not only was Neely making verbal threats (and stating that he didn't care if he went back to prison), but he was moving erratically physically, which is a step beyond mere verbal and could have made Penny believe that Neely was imminently about to act on his verbal threats. That's very relevant to any self defense claim, and the jury will have to decide whether such fears were reasonable.
As I've mentioned before, one need not be physically attacked in order to engage in physical force as a means of self defense.
What will be interesting to come out at trial is whether there are any witnesses who claim that Neely was preparing to lunge at them, etc., when Penny grabbed him from behind.
You write that the threat was verbal, but we know that Penny states that not only was Neely making verbal threats (and stating that he didn't care if he went back to prison), but he was moving erratically physically, which is a step beyond mere verbal and could have made Penny believe that Neely was imminently about to act on his verbal threats. That's very relevant to any self defense claim, and the jury will have to decide whether such fears were reasonable.
As I've mentioned before, one need not be physically attacked in order to engage in physical force as a means of self defense.
What will be interesting to come out at trial is whether there are any witnesses who claim that Neely was preparing to lunge at them, etc., when Penny grabbed him from behind.
using physical force is very different then using what amounts to deadly force.
two very different situations governed by different rules
You write that the threat was verbal, but we know that Penny states that not only was Neely making verbal threats (and stating that he didn't care if he went back to prison), but he was moving erratically physically, which is a step beyond mere verbal and could have made Penny believe that Neely was imminently about to act on his verbal threats. That's very relevant to any self defense claim, and the jury will have to decide whether such fears were reasonable.
As I've mentioned before, one need not be physically attacked in order to engage in physical force as a means of self defense.
What will be interesting to come out at trial is whether there are any witnesses who claim that Neely was preparing to lunge at them, etc., when Penny grabbed him from behind.
Exactly. Imagine if it's some Arab guy yelling "Alahu Akbar, I'm not afraid of prison or dying", throwing his clothes on the floor and moving around erratically.
Then Penny would be seen as a hero for "stopping the attack"
The only difference is this guy is black, not Arab with a history of violent attacks
Exactly. Imagine if it's some Arab guy yelling "Alahu Akbar, I'm not afraid of prison or dying", throwing his clothes on the floor and moving around erratically.
Then Penny would be seen as a hero for "stopping the attack"
The only difference is this guy is black, not Arab with a history of violent attacks
that is conjecture and hyperbole
you cant dream up a situation and conclusion to fit your narrative
using physical force is very different then using what amounts to deadly force.
two very different situations governed by different rules
For self defense, all that matters is whether someone reasonably feared that they (or others) imminently faced serious bodily harm or death.
Consider any number of circumstances.
The first pertains to the threat to use a firearm. If someone is making threats that they are going to shoot you and they have a weapon on them, the fact that they don't point the gun at you doesn't take away your right to engage in self defense measures (you don't have to wait for them to actually point their gun).
Similarly, someone who is walking outside with you and claims they are going to walk to their car down the road and then run you over (and assuming you're in a spot where you cannot reasonably get out of the way of any such vehicle assault should it commence) is threatening you with deadly force, which you're able to respond to.
What ties these two hypos together is the threat of harm, imminence of potential harm, and the ability to carry out threatened harm.
I argue that this logic applies to the Neely situation. Neely was making threats of harm, had the means to harm (via his body/fists/etc.), and was moving closer to people's faces and bodies.
it is extremely complex when it comes to self defense
it is very rare for something to be black and white , just different shades of gray .
i suggest for a look at how complex self defense becomes vs the laws , read the articles by massad ayoob .
he is the country's expert testimony who sits in on the Defendents side most of the time trying to defend the actions .
what is involved will make your hair hurt.
you can see two different verdicts in the fellow accused with the stabbing vs neely when it comes to the grand jury . two different scenarios with different actions involved and different verdicts as to " reasonable"
you cant dream up a situation and conclusion to fit your narrative
That is a hypothetical to explain a self defense argument here. In Metromoxo's hypo here--just like the actual Penny situation--the would-be-perp would not have physically touched anyone before he was subdued. And the actual case here is stronger than Metromoxo's hypo because, outside of some Arabic phrase being shouted and someone behaving erratically--which could make a reasonable person think that some sort of terrorist attack was imminent--we have actual threats, movements, etc., from Neely.
it is extremely complex when it comes to self defense
it is very rare for something to be black and white , just different shades of gray .
i suggest for a look at how complex sef defense becomes read the articles by massad ayoob .
he is the country's expert testimony who sits in on the Defendents side most of the time .
what is involved will make your hair hurt
The law is very much black and white. The shades of gray come down to whether a trier of fact (either a judge or jury) using the reasonable person standard agrees that someone reasonably feared death or serious bodily injury to himself or others (i.e. applying the law to the facts, with the facts being what presents the shades of gray).
I'm an attorney. While I don't claim to know how this case will turn out--especially because we don't have all the evidence presented and because I'm only one person whereas likely 12 people will judge this case--the nuances of how self defense law are applied to different fact patterns aren't lost on me.
The law is very much black and white. The shades of gray come down to whether a trier of fact (either a judge or jury) using the reasonable person standard agrees that someone reasonably feared death or serious bodily injury to himself or others (i.e. applying the law to the facts, with the facts being what presents the shades of gray).
I'm an attorney. While I don't claim to know how this case will turn out--especially because we don't have all the evidence presented and because I'm only one person whereas likely 12 people will judge this case--the nuances of self defense law aren't lost on me.
nope , the laws are never black and white , which is why we need lawyers ...
my feeling is he will be found guilty of manslaughter
whether he deserves it or not is another issue
Last edited by mathjak107; 06-29-2023 at 07:45 AM..
nope , the laws are never black and white , which is why we need lawyers ...
my feeling is he will be found guilty of manslaughter
whether he deserves it or not is another issue
Not so, though we're splitting hairs somewhat. Laws are black and white in that they say what is allowed and what isn't allowed; something isn't halfway allowed or not . . . it either is or it isn't. Again, the shades of gray come from legal application to the facts. Facts change the situation, not the law. This is what people refer to when they say "the law is not black and white, but has shades of gray" (or something similar); it's somewhat of a misnomer, though, when you actually stop to think about what the shades of gray (again, referring to the outcome of a legal question as applied to changing/different facts)..
Lawyers make our money through legal analysis, which is the application of law to the facts at hand. As a part of legal analysis, however, finding understanding the law isn't always clear, as the law as written may not tell the full story as courts have interpreted the law in a certain way (these interpretations become part of the "black and white" law and aren't changing on a case-by-case basis). Thus, folks have to know where and what to look for to establish the legal baseline and rules. We then proceed to find cases or hypotheticals that have fact patterns most closely aligning with the facts of a case at hand so we can say that "my" case is most similar to this case, so the outcome should be the similar, etc.
From where I stand, I don't have all of the evidence so cannot provide a firm legal opinion on my thoughts of Penny's guilt or innocence. That said, it is false that one cannot engage in self defense if one is not physically attacked (as some have argued in this thread), etc. Based on some of the evidence that we do have, however, I wouldn't be shocked if Penny walks.
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