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In railroad days, the overnight trains from NYC>Chicago and Chicago>NYC generally passed each other close to Buffalo. Distance wise the even split was between Dunkirk and North East but still within the limits of NY State.
The relationship is more like that of other cities that are so far removed the state's dominant city, their relationship to that city, and even the state as a whole, is weak at best. Think Las Cruces, New Mexico; El Paso, Texas; Spokane, Washington; the Metro East suburbs of St. Louis in Illinois, and "Da' Region" (Gary, Hammond, Munster, etc) in Indiana. Even others in the same state tend to dismiss those areas -- "Las Cruces, so far from heaven, so close to El Paso", Ohioans joking about how they really lost the Toledo War, etc.
Exactly this. Many cities/regions that are far removed from the dominant city/area of their state feel they have more in common with neighboring states -- and sometimes that's very obvious. For example, when I lived in NB, many folks from the western part of the state thought they should secede and join Wyoming. Eastern Washington and eastern Oregon have pretty much the same climate, economy, and culture as Idaho and northern Nevada, which is nothing like the western parts of those states.
Exactly this. Many cities/regions that are far removed from the dominant city/area of their state feel they have more in common with neighboring states -- and sometimes that's very obvious. For example, when I lived in NB, many folks from the western part of the state thought they should secede and join Wyoming. Eastern Washington and eastern Oregon have pretty much the same climate, economy, and culture as Idaho and northern Nevada, which is nothing like the western parts of those states.
I some cases, like the North Country region, there is more of a connection to Canadian cities like Ottawa or Montreal. So, those are the big cities that some people in the state go to.
Exactly this. Many cities/regions that are far removed from the dominant city/area of their state feel they have more in common with neighboring states -- and sometimes that's very obvious. For example, when I lived in NB, many folks from the western part of the state thought they should secede and join Wyoming. Eastern Washington and eastern Oregon have pretty much the same climate, economy, and culture as Idaho and northern Nevada, which is nothing like the western parts of those states.
Yeah. But let's not forget that cities like Cleveland, Chicago, and Milwaukee are also removed from their respective states culturally anyway.
Which is why IMO Great Lakes designations surpass either Northeast or Midwest labels. Buffalo may be like Chicago but Chicago ain't like Illinois in much of anything.
I've heard that A LOT in my life. I live in the geographic Midwest region, but some NYC people and those closer to the Bos-Wash corridor have this idea that somehow Western New York is more Midwestern than it is Northeast or even New York.
Where the hell did this idea come from? Do Western New Yorkers actually believe this? If so, why?
I've lived in NYC my entire life (I've also traveled quite a bit throughout the state) and I've never heard anyone say that.
I've lived in NYC my entire life (I've also traveled quite a bit throughout the state) and I've never heard anyone say that.
I hear it all the time on city-data.com and I also have heard it while living in the South and visiting the South. Maybe those WNYers didn't want Southerners to think of them as rude NYC people or something. But I did meet a guy from Jersey of all places say that WNY was a lot like the Midwest. He even said "yeah they have those flat non-accents like Midwestern people unlike us from the East Coast". Funny thing about that is he had all this pride in the East Coast accent he didn't even have.
Do Western New Yorkers believe they're in the Midwest. No. They certainly don't identify much with Albany (eastern New York) and especially not with NYC. They do tend to identify more with cities like Cleveland and Detroit, and there are a lot of similiarities among these cities. However, Buffalo isn't like other Midwestern cities like Columbus or Indianapolis or Des Moines.
I think it's accurate to say that Buffalo and Western New York are part of the Great Lakes region. The cities that ring the Great Lakes share a largely common historical legacy of being former centers of heavy industry, significant immigration from Eastern and Southern Europe, and, more recently, of being part of the Rust Belt as American industry modernized and shed jobs.
As you may know, I've been to several different parts of New York.... Buffalo, the Adirondacks (which is truly "upstate") through the Southern Tier south of the Finger Lakes region, and the NYC area. You folks in Western New York, and the Southern Tier region I would say definitely have the same demeanor as those of us in Northeast Ohio, and more in common with us than folks in NYC. It's like 2 different states! Then again, we think the same about Southern Ohio. Been down there, because a friend of mine moved down there years ago, and got married, and I was in his wedding party. Totally different vibe.
Culturally, Buffalo is solidly Great Lakes Midwestern. Some examples:
* The prevalence of blue collar culture -- fish frys, bingo, bowling, polka, Monte Carlo/Vegas nights, meat raffles, VFDs, American cars, and so on -- compared to other Northeastern cities.
* Buffalo's dominant "old European" ethnic groups are Polish, German, Irish, and Italian - the mix is more like what one would find in Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, and Pittsburgh, than Rochester, Syracuse, and Utica, where Italian-Americans are the dominant group.
* Buffalonians say "pop" instead of "soda", and it's ground zero for the Inland Northern accent and Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Heartland rock -- Bob Seger, John Mellenkamp, and even regional favorites like the Michael Stanley Band and Donnie Iris -- still has a huge following compared to elsewhere in the Northeast.
* Supermarkets always had Vernor's on the shelves, and Faygo was the default cheap or generic pop in the 1970s and 1980s.
When it comes to institutions, Buffalnians align themselves more with the Northeast. Some examples:
* College-bound students usually aim for schools in the Northeast - SUNY schools, UR, Syracuse, NYU, the Ivies, schools in Boston, and small Catholic and nonsectarian liberal arts colleges in NY and New England. In Cleveland, by comatison, college-bound students tend to look west - CWRU in town, OSU, UM and other big Midwestern land grant schools, Chicago, Northwestern, Valparaiso, Butler, etc. (The only overlap overlap seems to be Notre Dame.)
* Fans of professional baseball tend to cheer on the Yankees, not the Indians, Tigers, Cubs, etc.
* There's not much enthusiasm for college football or basketball, except some obligatory loyalty towards Syracuse and, for Irish-Americans, Notre Dame.
* Buffalonians don't do the summer-cottage-in-northern-Michigan thing.
Where they come together -
* Neighborhood look and feel - city neighborhoods outside the "Buffalo Rising Belt" west of Main Street can feel like an odd cross of Chicago and Queens. Outside the city, there's a mix of suburban Northeastern and Midwestern architecture, but with suburban Midwestern infrastructure (curbs, sidewalks, and tree lawns rather than soft shoulders, swales, and no sidewalks). Buffalo's eastern suburbs can fill in for Detroit's Downriver 'burbs.
For some reason, I see a lot more cars with Ohio license plates (and 18-Cuyahoga and 43-Lake county stickers) in Buffalo, than New York-plated cars in Cleveland.
On the other hand (I live in Northeast Ohio) I've been seeing a ton of New York plates in my area and around the the region as a whole a lot lately.
Yeah. But let's not forget that cities like Cleveland, Chicago, and Milwaukee are also removed from their respective states culturally anyway.
Which is why IMO Great Lakes designations surpass either Northeast or Midwest labels. Buffalo may be like Chicago but Chicago ain't like Illinois in much of anything.
Every state has an urban-rural/small city split. Illinois is like Chicago in the sense that 2/3rds of Illinois is the Chicago metro area.
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) through the Southern Tier south of the Finger Lakes region, and the NYC area. You folks in Western New York, and the Southern Tier region I would say definitely have the same demeanor as those of us in Northeast Ohio, and more in common with us than folks in NYC. It's like 2 different states! Then again, we think the same about Southern Ohio.
Been down there, because a friend of mine moved down there years ago, and got married, and I was in his wedding party. Totally different vibe.
