"I'm cutting you toxic people out of my life!" - can this be a copout? (children, holidays)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Unfortunately, not everyone achieves this outcome, even with a lifetime of trying, retraining, confronting and therapy.
It's good advice for some people. For many, it would be like banging their head against the wall.
Yes, of course. But I think some relationships are worth the effort. Even if a person doesn't respond as we'd like, we know we did what we could. This only works, by the way, if we're responding to them from a healthy place ourselves. It does no good to fight dysfunction with more dysfunction and sometimes that's the legacy they've left us with .
Gotta clear out the baggage first and some people aren't willing or able to do that. We have to be prepared to be brutally honest with ourselves and some people just cannot or will not go there.
My mother for instance. HER mother was mentally ill. I mean it - paranoid schizophrenic. She was not a good mother, not by a long shot. People in the family know that - my mother's other sisters know that, my cousins know that, my father knows that. My mother will not admit that or confront it, nor will she address her own mental illness or emotional damage, and therefore she will not treat her mental illness, and this has crippled her and wrecked relationships all through her life. It's very sad.
And we can fall into the same dysfunction if we don't address our own weaknesses and vulnerabilities and faults within dysfunctional relationships. Even the most abused aduilt is getting SOMETHING out of a relationship - they aren't simply a sacrificial lamb. We have to look at our part in the play so to speak, and sometimes it's not pretty.
And then some people are so awful we don't really owe them the effort. It's just good to be SURE of that before we slap the label "Toxic Person" on them and boot them from our lives, no matter how many self help books or strangers on the internet tell us it's the right thing to do.
Sometimes it is - and sometimes it's not.
And like I said earlier, I have soundly booted two people completely out of my life over the years. And I've distanced myself from others because of their lack of respect. I'm not saying it's never appropriate to do so.
To repeat, I'm not criticizing your decision or your actions. I'm not judging you for seeking professional help either - I've done so myself,as I shared. And who knows, I may do so again if I feel myself needing some outside help again.
You don't owe me any explanation for your actions. I'm just asking people a general question and not even expecting answers that agree with my own conclusions. For all I know you've done exactly what you need to do at this point in your life.
I don't think you're criticizing, and I don't feel I'm being judged (we probably all need a little professional help at some point). I was just explaining my situation. Since I last posted, I took the step and cut off contact. I told a friend that runs into this person sometimes. He told me thanks for the heads-up and that he'll be sure to tell her he's not the messenger if she starts ranting at him.
I'm not criticizing or judging people. I'm asking people to look inside THEMSELVES - to heal themselves before they decide to throw away relationships that may be salvageable from a healthier, healed perspective.
During the 5 years my husband and his mother were estranged, on several occasions he'd ask me if he should try calling her again. I kept reminding him that any action he took needed to be for HIM not for her. For instance, if she died today, would he have felt at peace with the way things ended between them? If not, he'd need to reach out to her.
I agree that people need to do what is healthy for themselves. Sometimes, that's cutting people out. But like you said, before doing that, they also need to make sure they are at peace with their decision. You never want to lose someone important in your life and wonder after it's too late whether or not you should have tried a little harder. You may not have to live with them, but you always have to live with yourself.
I see more posts about friends cutting out friends who have emotional problems or need help in some way or over something I perceive as petty and that makes me sad.
When it comes to family, i see more posts by people who let family emotionally abuse them. The "but they are family" rationalization is no excuse. Life is too short to take mental abuse so that you have someone to "spend holidays with."
Before I go any further, let me state that I do think that some people deserve to be hoisted right out of our lives. I do not think that anyone "owes anybody" any time standing in the firing line of abuse.
But I read so many posts about cutting people completely off - and not just casual friends, but intimate friends or immediate family - people whose lives have played a big part in who we all are today. I want to offer another alternative. That's not to say that anyone has to take it, but it's something to think about.
Let's use unreasonable, disrespectful mothers as an example - since apparently there are a lot of them around.
You're raised by your mom. Your sense of self worth is shaped by her from an early age. Your personal habits, likes and dislikes, expectations, etc are all very much impacted by her influence on your life in most cases (I'm not talking about mothers who abandon their kids early on, just to clarify).
Along the way, you may come to realize that your mother is ape **** crazy. Or that she's a sociopath. Or that she's emotionally damaged herself. Or that she's got some sort of personality disorder. Or that she's completely unreasonable. Or that her personality is in direct conflict with yours. Or that her beliefs and yours don't match up at all. Pick your poison.
Anyway, if that's the case, I'm sure that you could probably write a book on all the crazy, unreasonable, and sometimes cruel things such a person has done to you. I'm sure you could make a good case for walking away from this relationship entirely and "living happily ever after," and I'm sure that some people have done just that.
But others have found that doing so creates a lot of other family drama and before you know it, bingo - you're cutting people off left and right! Your holidays are screwed up, or your kids don't know their grandparents at all, or every minute you spend around your mother makes your skin crawl.
I'm here to present another possible alternative.
If a dysfunctional mother raised you, I can promise you that you have emotional damage from that upbringing. if you just cut her out of your life, that may feel satisfying on one level, but what have you done to "fix yourself?" What have you done to model strength and to model your values to other people?
There is great personal satisfaction in working through one's own issues and then approaching these "toxic people" and saying, "Here are my parameters and my values. I insist that you respect those. If you cannot do so, then we'll have to part ways, which will be unfortunate, because I only have one mother, and you only have one me. Personally, I am disinclined to throw our relationship away, but I also am going to live by my value system. Here are my parameters:" And then name them.
For me they were, "You are not to call me at 6 am - or at 10 am for that matter - raising hell. If you write your manifestos to me in letter or email form, I am not going to read them. When you are in my house, you will show respect for my religious beliefs, my lifestyle choices, my political stance, etc. If you want to discuss these matters with me, I insist that the discussions be respectful, with no name calling, no insulting, no inflammatory language. You will treat me as an adult, not as a child. If you become rude to me in my home, I will ask you to leave. If you become rude to me in YOUR home, I will immediately leave."
Then I had to retrain her, which meant that there were unpleasant scenarios for a time. I did have to get up and leave her house on more than one occasion. I also had to tell her to leave me house. Once I had to insist that she PAY FOR A BUNCH OF LIBRARY BOOKS that she had written "BS!" and other derogatory notes throughout. I had to go 18 months without talking to her at one point because I had told her not to call me raising hell, and not to yell at me and then hang up - and she did so anyway. So...I wasn't going to call her till she apologized. She held out 18 months, but by golly - she apologized.
The end result is that I have a decent relationship with my mom. It took about three years of work on my part, "retraining her" - and retraining myself and my responses to her. BUT IT WAS SO WORTH IT. Now my mother is in my life - under my terms. She occasionally steps outside the boundaries, and I have to hold her to those boundaries, but I also know that (here comes the good part):
SHE RESPECTS ME.
This means a lot to me.
I'm glad I didn't give up. She is now an elderly, rather needy woman, and it's sad to think of her having to be alone if my father goes before she does. Now she doesn't have to be alone, and I don't have to worry about whether or not I gave it my best shot. I know I did.
Also, an aside note - I have a better relationship with my dad. Yes, this involved some confrontation - after all, he was the one who stood by and allowed her to abuse my brother and me. We had to work through that. But we did, and now we're a family. No family is perfect - but respect is possible in many cases.
I'm not saying that it's never appropriate to cut someone completely out of our lives. Of course it can be. It's not always the only answer though.
Food for thought.
Without delving too deeply, I forgave my mom. Most people in my shoes wouldn't. At the same time, forgiving her seemed to make my boundaries a bit malleable at times. Do I regret not ever severing ties from her completely? No. I see her as a flawed human being. Given the circumstances that had I grown up in the conditions she had, I'm not sure what I would do.
Some people don't have the capacity or insight to look within themselves. And, even though they are flawed individuals, no one's perfect. We all make mistakes. We all have times in our lives when our judgment hasn't been the sharpest. And, no doubt, some people are batsh*t insane. But, does that mean that I have to take it personally or internalize what they do? To some degree I can see how dysfunctional patterns and behaviors can have an influence on us. Key thing is to put things into perspective, detach and make your own choices for what changes you want to make for yourself personally, and how you envision your ideal healthy life to be.
I also believe in addressing people's personal strengths and hoping for a better tomorrow.
Communication with someone who's hurt you tremendously can be really tough, but life's too short. And, sometimes, it's about being the bigger person and like in your situation: setting appropriate boundaries and having them respected.
It's unfortunate that sometimes we are the parentified adult, even as kids growing up.
I think you have raised really excellent points KathrynAragon.
However it's hard to go from getting-your-buttons-pushed to suddenly-drawing-boundaries in a clear and healthy way. Especially with parents!!! Sometimes a period of time and distance is needed to accomplish that. Time to strengthen up emotionally, do some important healing, and come back to the relationship at a later time.
For example, my mother and I have always had a rocky relationship. I stopped talking to her for maybe 8 years or so (except when absolutely necessary.) My sisters became furious with me and consequently quit speaking to me. Needless to say, it sucked.
But a few years ago..When I began interacting with my mother again, she treated me really really nicely. She is nicer to me than she is to my sisters. She doesn't pull any crap, because she knows I'm not afraid to cut her out of my life again. (I know it sounds mean, but I didn't do it to hurt her. I did it to protect myself.) Now things are so much better! She has even expressed happiness to my sisters and to me that we have a good relationship now. We're not best friends or anything, but we are civil and respectful and even have a few laughs together.
And this part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
If a dysfunctional mother raised you, I can promise you that you have emotional damage from that upbringing. if you just cut her out of your life, that may feel satisfying on one level, but what have you done to "fix yourself?" What have you done to model strength and to model your values to other people?
Without those years away from my mother, I probably wouldn't have gained the horrifying realization that I was kind of a jerk to her too!
When I passed out from horrific pain from what turned out to be endometriosis so bad, half of my insides were stuck together, she said, "I don't think it's anything. I think something is going on with you, in your head." There I am, a month later in the hospital getting filleted down the middle to the tune of 18 staples, and she didn't even show up for two days. Yep, that twisted appendix and that huge, burrito-sized endometrioma were all in my head, all right. Doctors originally thought I had ovarian cancer and were ready to give me 3 to 6 months.
When she called asking me for information on symptoms she was having, I tapped into my considerable network of information and specialists and helped her.
When she complained about men, I listened. When she complained about being broke, I offered her money. When she had no hot water and nowhere to do her laundry after Sandy, I opened my doors to her. When her son died, I was there at the hospital by her side, and I was there in her darkest, most desperate hour.
Never--and I can honestly say never--have I ever asked for any kind of emergency assistance from her in my entire life, in part because she did manage to mess up her own so badly. She did tell me I could stay with her in her 1BR apartment as a way of trying to get me to relocate last summer, but her dog would eat my pet the minute my back was turned, and she got extremely offended that I didn't see the feasibility in that, or in attempting to work under those conditions. So because I didn't do what she wanted me to do, when I did reach out, that is what I received.
No. She is a beyotch, and it's too bad I'm an atheist, because if I believed in a hell, I'd say she could go rot in it.
I'm glad you were able to cut off contact with someone who acted so maliciously towards you. I can only imagine how much hurt and pain you went through. She sounds jealous of you. Not worth the betrayal to hold onto. Certainly not her toxicity.
Family members who have a warped perception on life.. can really make life miserable for those around them.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,700 posts, read 41,748,461 times
Reputation: 41381
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
Before I go any further, let me state that I do think that some people deserve to be hoisted right out of our lives. I do not think that anyone "owes anybody" any time standing in the firing line of abuse.
But I read so many posts about cutting people completely off - and not just casual friends, but intimate friends or immediate family - people whose lives have played a big part in who we all are today. I want to offer another alternative. That's not to say that anyone has to take it, but it's something to think about.
Let's use unreasonable, disrespectful mothers as an example - since apparently there are a lot of them around.
You're raised by your mom. Your sense of self worth is shaped by her from an early age. Your personal habits, likes and dislikes, expectations, etc are all very much impacted by her influence on your life in most cases (I'm not talking about mothers who abandon their kids early on, just to clarify).
Along the way, you may come to realize that your mother is ape **** crazy. Or that she's a sociopath. Or that she's emotionally damaged herself. Or that she's got some sort of personality disorder. Or that she's completely unreasonable. Or that her personality is in direct conflict with yours. Or that her beliefs and yours don't match up at all. Pick your poison.
Anyway, if that's the case, I'm sure that you could probably write a book on all the crazy, unreasonable, and sometimes cruel things such a person has done to you. I'm sure you could make a good case for walking away from this relationship entirely and "living happily ever after," and I'm sure that some people have done just that.
But others have found that doing so creates a lot of other family drama and before you know it, bingo - you're cutting people off left and right! Your holidays are screwed up, or your kids don't know their grandparents at all, or every minute you spend around your mother makes your skin crawl.
I'm here to present another possible alternative.
If a dysfunctional mother raised you, I can promise you that you have emotional damage from that upbringing. if you just cut her out of your life, that may feel satisfying on one level, but what have you done to "fix yourself?" What have you done to model strength and to model your values to other people?
There is great personal satisfaction in working through one's own issues and then approaching these "toxic people" and saying, "Here are my parameters and my values. I insist that you respect those. If you cannot do so, then we'll have to part ways, which will be unfortunate, because I only have one mother, and you only have one me. Personally, I am disinclined to throw our relationship away, but I also am going to live by my value system. Here are my parameters:" And then name them.
For me they were, "You are not to call me at 6 am - or at 10 am for that matter - raising hell. If you write your manifestos to me in letter or email form, I am not going to read them. When you are in my house, you will show respect for my religious beliefs, my lifestyle choices, my political stance, etc. If you want to discuss these matters with me, I insist that the discussions be respectful, with no name calling, no insulting, no inflammatory language. You will treat me as an adult, not as a child. If you become rude to me in my home, I will ask you to leave. If you become rude to me in YOUR home, I will immediately leave."
Then I had to retrain her, which meant that there were unpleasant scenarios for a time. I did have to get up and leave her house on more than one occasion. I also had to tell her to leave me house. Once I had to insist that she PAY FOR A BUNCH OF LIBRARY BOOKS that she had written "BS!" and other derogatory notes throughout. I had to go 18 months without talking to her at one point because I had told her not to call me raising hell, and not to yell at me and then hang up - and she did so anyway. So...I wasn't going to call her till she apologized. She held out 18 months, but by golly - she apologized.
The end result is that I have a decent relationship with my mom. It took about three years of work on my part, "retraining her" - and retraining myself and my responses to her. BUT IT WAS SO WORTH IT. Now my mother is in my life - under my terms. She occasionally steps outside the boundaries, and I have to hold her to those boundaries, but I also know that (here comes the good part):
SHE RESPECTS ME.
This means a lot to me.
I'm glad I didn't give up. She is now an elderly, rather needy woman, and it's sad to think of her having to be alone if my father goes before she does. Now she doesn't have to be alone, and I don't have to worry about whether or not I gave it my best shot. I know I did.
Also, an aside note - I have a better relationship with my dad. Yes, this involved some confrontation - after all, he was the one who stood by and allowed her to abuse my brother and me. We had to work through that. But we did, and now we're a family. No family is perfect - but respect is possible in many cases.
I'm not saying that it's never appropriate to cut someone completely out of our lives. Of course it can be. It's not always the only answer though.
Food for thought.
Nice statement, but no sale. Sometimes you have to realize a lost cause and cut your losses. I did it with my father, who is no longer living. I have no regrets. By the time, he had gotten to his deathbed my heart and mind were not able to risk another disappointment and cause even more damage. Any relationship where I'm always accessing damage or "retraining" people is not worth it to me.
I am glad it has all worked out for you Kathryn. But I have an absolute clear conscious and know I made the right decision for me, my kids and even my parents. So in that sense, it worked out for me doing it my way.
During the 5 years my husband and his mother were estranged, on several occasions he'd ask me if he should try calling her again. I kept reminding him that any action he took needed to be for HIM not for her. For instance, if she died today, would he have felt at peace with the way things ended between them? If not, he'd need to reach out to her.
I agree that people need to do what is healthy for themselves. Sometimes, that's cutting people out. But like you said, before doing that, they also need to make sure they are at peace with their decision. You never want to lose someone important in your life and wonder after it's too late whether or not you should have tried a little harder. You may not have to live with them, but you always have to live with yourself.
Wow, RIGHT ON.
Here's how I see it - sometimes people simply will not respect your boundaries. I mean, they just won't. Ever. They're abusive, they're deceitful, they've often got some sort of personality disorder. Sometimes they are simply evil. There's not much we can do or are obligated to do with people like that.
But not everyone is unteachable or unsalvageable. Not only that - there is no utopia when it comes to relationships. WE OURSELVES are often insensitive, or selfish, or wrong in our assessment of others.
I think it's best to work on healing ourselves and getting our own heads together before we decide to make that total break with a person.
I also believe in practicing the Golden Rule. If we're going to hold people to very high standards, we better be living up to those standards ourselves.
I just see a lot of feel good psychobabble out there that is all about what WE can get out of a relationship, and what WE have the right to do, and what WE should expect from others, etc, etc. Not that those aren't important things to consider, but we also have to balance those ideas with what WE give a relationship, what WE have a responsibility to do, and what others should expect from us.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
