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Still sounds like you're trying to find a way to agree with the folks who, according to one poster, supposedly say that Charlotte and Raleigh really are the same size 'city' but that's not reflected in municipal population figures because Raleigh can't annex its suburbs.
In the face of an assertion that Wake was obviously more populated due to size, I simply noted that almost all of Wake’s growth was happening in a fairly compact incorporated area while 70% of the county was growing very little. That led me to discovering a quirk that the city of Charlotte was the almost the exact same area and population as incorporated Wake. So whether it was annexation or divine right of mayors or what have you, the results stayed the same. It was Cary et al that pushed Wake past. The aversion people have in recognizing Garner is located basically a block from downtown has led to this notion that Wake’s population is spread out over massive areas.
Reality is much more nuanced than that, and the city of Charlotte has a lot in common with Raleigh/Cary/Garner. And of course much that is different. But everyone here is well acquainted with differences. I was simply noting on a similarity while also correcting the notion that it was Wake’s extra land driving the growth.
In the face of an assertion that Wake was obviously more populated due to size, I simply noted that almost all of Wake’s growth was happening in a fairly compact incorporated area while 70% of the county was growing very little. That led me to discovering a quirk that the city of Charlotte was the almost the exact same area and population as incorporated Wake. So whether it was annexation or divine right of mayors or what have you, the results stayed the same. It was Cary et al that pushed Wake past. The aversion people have in recognizing Garner is located basically a block from downtown has led to this notion that Wake’s population is spread out over massive areas.
Reality is much more nuanced than that, and the city of Charlotte has a lot in common with Raleigh/Cary/Garner. And of course much that is different. But everyone here is well acquainted with differences. I was simply noting on a similarity while also correcting the notion that it was Wake’s extra land driving the growth.
The issue is that you were using that "quirk" to justify the misguided notion, as it has been said about a few Raleigh folks, that in reality Charlotte was just a bigger city on paper and that Raleigh was just as big but the statistics don't reflect that because it wasn't able to annex all of its suburbs. Again, the problem with this is that Charlotte also has suburbs, inside and outside of Mecklenburg, that it did not or could not annex. Limiting the actual "city" of Charlotte or Raleigh to what's within their respective home counties is artificially restrictive.
I think Charlotte’s city limits would be called naturally restrictive, not artificially so. It more or less picked it’s own borders. It annexed area roughly the size of Raleigh from 1990 to now. Raleigh has annexed as well, but not as much because there was other competition for the same land. But while the road taken may have been different (one city growing out, several cities and towns growing into one another), the end result was more or less the same. 300 square miles of 850000 people in the middle of a booming metro. I’ll say we agree on one thing though, Charlotte’s edge is in the other counties, in the area outside the 300 square miles. That is where the biggest difference is between the areas.
I think Charlotte’s city limits would be called naturally restrictive, not artificially so.
Note that I said "city," meaning not just the incorporated municipality. Charlotte and its close-in suburbs could be considered the real city of Charlotte in a practical sense, just as you include Raleigh"s suburbs in this comparison with Charlotte. But because you're only looking at Mecklenburg and Wake counties with respect to the quirk you observed, you have artificially restricted what could be considered the real city of Charlotte as it excludes adjacent suburbs in neighboring counties.
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It more or less picked it’s own borders. It annexed area roughly the size of Raleigh from 1990 to now. Raleigh has annexed as well, but not as much because there was other competition for the same land.
And also because Raleigh hasn't been growing rapidly for as long as Charlotte has.
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But while the road taken may have been different (one city growing out, several cities and towns growing into one another), the end result was more or less the same. 300 square miles of 850000 people in the middle of a booming metro. I’ll say we agree on one thing though, Charlotte’s edge is in the other counties, in the area outside the 300 square miles. That is where the biggest difference is between the areas.
Yes and this is why what can be practically called the "city' of Charlotte goes well beyond the municipal borders of the incorporated city and extends into its suburbs in neighboring counties. You note that this is where Charlotte has a metropolitan advantage, which is technically correct, but those suburbs (Belmont, Huntersville, Cornelius, Weddington, Indian Land, Fort Mill, much of newer Concord, etc) border Charlotte itself and are definitely part of the core of the region.
The issue is that you were using that "quirk" to justify the misguided notion, as it has been said about a few Raleigh folks, that in reality Charlotte was just a bigger city on paper and that Raleigh was just as big but the statistics don't reflect that because it wasn't able to annex all of its suburbs. Again, the problem with this is that Charlotte also has suburbs, inside and outside of Mecklenburg, that it did not or could not annex. Limiting the actual "city" of Charlotte or Raleigh to what's within their respective home counties is artificially restrictive.
I don't think that's what anyone is getting at.
I think folks in other areas of the state don't really grasp how The Triangle area works.
It's not that "Raleigh is just as big as Charlotte". It's that the Triangle area and Charlotte metro are far more similar in size than some would like to believe. Yes the Triangle is technically two separate MSAs by a (silly) technicality but still function as one metro area for all intents and purposes (again....more people actually commute into Durham County from Wake County than vice versa).
The Triangle isn't "Raleigh and it's suburbs" to be compared to "Charlotte and it's suburbs" as some seem to be implying. It's Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill and surrounding communities. When "Charlotte and it's suburbs" are compared to "The Triangle area"...yes; Charlotte still comes out as the bigger of the two....but not to the degree that some here like to believe.
I think folks in other areas of the state don't really grasp how The Triangle area works.
It's not that "Raleigh is just as big as Charlotte". It's that the Triangle area and Charlotte metro are far more similar in size than some would like to believe. Yes the Triangle is technically two separate MSAs by a (silly) technicality but still function as one metro area for all intents and purposes (again....more people actually commute into Durham County from Wake County than vice versa).
The Triangle isn't "Raleigh and it's suburbs" to be compared to "Charlotte and it's suburbs" as some seem to be implying. It's Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill and surrounding communities. When "Charlotte and it's suburbs" are compared to "The Triangle area"...yes; Charlotte still comes out as the bigger of the two....but not to the degree that some here like to believe.
And the Triad and Triangle are even closer in population
Charlotte MSA 2017 = 2.5M
Raleigh / Durham combined MSA = 1.8M
Winston / GSO combined MSA = 1.4M
In the broader sense, the difference isn’t that big. It’s not like CLT is 5M or even 4M. The gap between Raleigh/Durham MSA & Charlotte MSA is less than the gap between the DC MSA and triad/Charlotte/Triangle combined. But at the end of the day, for MSA’s this size. Is a sizable difference. I mean. Triangle feels much larger and such than Triad IMO.
(Triangle CSA is not simply adding Durham and Raleigh MSA FYI. That’s adding 600,000 to Triangle and undercounting Charlotte by 100,000 by using the MSA for one and the CSA for the other.)
Last edited by Charlotte485; 04-28-2019 at 08:50 AM..
I’m not even sure we are in disagreement. Charlotte bordering other places isn’t in question. Raleigh borders other places as well. I was simply noting that the city of Charlotte happens to be the same size and population as a defined area around Raleigh. It isn’t really a debatable point, it’s just is what it is. I guess your point is that Steele Creek functions inherently differently than Garner does to Raleigh. I would likely disagree, but the point remains this. Wake is surpassing Mecklenburg because for the first time ever, the Wake communities have basically fused into each other and the city of Charlotte now has no statistical advantage in either area or population. When I was born, the gap was close to 40%. Pointing fingers at farmland or Wendell is a red herring.
I’m not even sure we are in disagreement. Charlotte bordering other places isn’t in question. Raleigh borders other places as well. I was simply noting that the city of Charlotte happens to be the same size and population as a defined area around Raleigh. It isn’t really a debatable point, it’s just is what it is. I guess your point is that Steele Creek functions differently to Charlotte than Garner does to Raleigh. I would likely disagree, but the point remains this. Wake is surpassing Mecklenburg because for the first time ever, the Wake communities have basically fused into each other and the city of Charlotte now has no statistical advantage in either area or population. When I was born, the gap was close to 40%. Pointing fingers at farmland or Wendell is a red herring.
No. Steele Creek is a random thing irrelevant right now to Charlotte. Maybe as a huge swath of nothingness transforms into the River District, it will be relevant.
Look at the map below.
If you could zoom a little farther out, the population density picks up heavily again with the Border areas (Union County, Mooresville, Concord, York Co.) due to people wanting to avoid Meck taxes. So even though Meck has room to grow, it’s being strategically held by the city of Charlotte and in other areas by Meck as to keep density levels up and control sprawl. This has happened even uptown where the city sits on land until it wants it developed.
So you could point to “Well, Mecklenburg has a lot of area to grow still, so your point that it’s physically smaller is invalid.” But I would point you to the competition right across the border
One thing some posters forget is Charlotte annexed to control growth of the region for the next century or so. The annexation is very long term vision. It will help us avoid issues like ATL & the Braves fiasco. We already have to deal with SC offering incentives for companies to cross the border. We don’t need to fight with more municipalities over those issues
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