Why are there no quality grocery stores in OKC? (Oklahoma City: zoning, cost)

[Zachj7]

Honestly, I would like quality at a decent price. That's what I see in a grocery store. I am used to Kroger, Trader Joe's, The Fresh Market, and other stores like that. It's always a plus since I live alone to have a outstanding prepared foods section. I expect fresh produce. I also expect a quality meat and seafood department. Almost every store in OKC is seriously lacking.

Originally Posted by okcpulse

Just so that you are aware, bchris02, Tulsa's original Whole Foods was a Wild Oats, then Whole Foods bought the chain, so naturally Tulsa got a store.

What amazes me about the marketing department of major popular retailers is that they do not learn from history. I will give three examples...

First (but not such a top) example is Starbucks Coffee. They were reluctant to enter the Oklahoma City market with their stand-alone locations, leaving OKC with only the coffee kiosks in supermarkets. In 2002, they opened their first OKC location on Memorial and Penn. Based on their projected sales, they only planned two or three additional OKC locations. When sales far exceeded their expectations, well, the rest is history.

Second example is Whole Foods. For years Whole Foods was reluctant to enter the OKC market. The OKC location as far exceeded the sales that Whole Foods was expecting.

Third example was Anthropologie. Once again, the store has outperformed the company's expectations. And finally, the outlet mall has been so successful that they are now in their third expansion phase. There is a trend here, and stores like Costco, Urban Outfitters, The Container Store, etc are not catching on.

I think businesses are hesitant about OKC is because of type of market that they would be investing here. I have a feeling they look at income, education, and other factors before coming in. They look at our demographics and they worried about investing here. They might look at OKC and think the demographics say that something "new" and different wouldn't be worth the risks in our area. I think some of these fears of investing here are wrong but some are right. I mean have you ever seen a city as sprawled out before in your life? Something is just not right about that.

Things are however changing and each new business that tests OKC waters is pleasantly surprised.

[bchris02]

^^^ Sprawl in OKC is bad, but it is not the most sprawled out city in the nation and I am certain that is not the reason this city gets such poor choices retail-wise. Charlotte is just as bad if not worse. Perception though might have something to do with it. The negative stereotype of OKC is very strong once you leave the metro area and even worse once you leave the state. A lot of people who live in OKC and never leave don't realize it. OKC is not a popular and well-liked city around the country. It doesn't help that so many Tulsans try to perpetuate that stereotype in order to make Tulsa look better.

No matter the reason, a big league city needs big league retail, and Wal-Mart is not that.

[okcpulse]

Originally Posted by Zachj7

I think businesses are hesitant about OKC is because of type of market that they would be investing here. I have a feeling they look at income, education, and other factors before coming in. They look at our demographics and they worried about investing here. They might look at OKC and think the demographics say that something "new" and different wouldn't be worth the risks in our area. I think some of these fears of investing here are wrong but some are right. I mean have you ever seen a city as sprawled out before in your life? Something is just not right about that.

Things are however changing and each new business that tests OKC waters is pleasantly surprised.

I have seen the data. I am a data junkie. And Oklahoma City compared to Tulsa based on demographics is no reason to keep quality retailers from entering the market.

I also must add that Oklahoma City's sprawl has a skewed view. Even though Oklahoma City is 622 square miles, only 280 contiguous square miles are developed. In 1950, Oklahoma City was only 85 square miles in area with 253,000 people.

If you want out of control sprawl, visit Houston. I should know. I've been here for over 7 years. Sprawl is so bad that suburbs have urban blight. Houston also has some bizarre annexing habits. The city just annexed Kingwood, a long strand of FM 1960 which is miles outside of the city limits, and there is miles of development that not inside any city limits whatsoever.

Yeah, I think Houston has OKC beat.... by miles.

[bchris02]

Originally Posted by okcpulse

I have seen the data. I am a data junkie. And Oklahoma City compared to Tulsa based on demographics is no reason to keep quality retailers from entering the market.

I also must add that Oklahoma City's sprawl has a skewed view. Even though Oklahoma City is 622 square miles, only 280 contiguous square miles are developed. In 1950, Oklahoma City was only 85 square miles in area with 253,000 people.

If you want out of control sprawl, visit Houston. I should know. I've been here for over 7 years. Sprawl is so bad that suburbs have urban blight. Houston also has some bizarre annexing habits. The city just annexed Kingwood, a long strand of FM 1960 which is miles outside of the city limits, and there is miles of development that not inside any city limits whatsoever.

Yeah, I think Houston has OKC beat.... by miles.

I've heard rumors that new retailers actually do look at OKC but then the Tulsa Chamber of Commerce comes in and convinces them that Tulsa is a better choice than OKC. I wonder of the OKC Chamber of Commerce needs to be more proactive at recruiting new retail as well as aggressively debunking the misconceptions about this market. For example, when Albertson's left the market, the Chamber of Commerce should have been actively recruiting a quality grocer to buy up the locations. That could have solved this entire problem. It really is mindnumbing.

[okie1962]

Originally Posted by bchris02

I've heard rumors that new retailers actually do look at OKC but then the Tulsa Chamber of Commerce comes in and convinces them that Tulsa is a better choice than OKC.

LOL It's all Tulsa fault! I don't mean any disrespect towards my OKC friends, but maybe Tulsa does a better job attracting these business. When these companies look at expanding into Oklahoma it's not like they have to pick one city over another, they could move into OKC as easily as Tulsa.

[bchris02]

Originally Posted by okie1962

LOL It's all Tulsa fault! I don't mean any disrespect towards my OKC friends, but maybe Tulsa does a better job attracting these business. When these companies look at expanding into Oklahoma it's not like they have to pick one city over another, they could move into OKC as easily as Tulsa.

I agree with you, I think the Tulsa Chamber of Commerce does a better job at attracting retail. That's not to say OKC's chamber of commerce is a slouch by any means, OKC has their focus on areas that have far more long-term significance than an Urban Outfitters or a Kroger. Smaller things like good grocery stores and shopping affect quality of life though, so hopefully OKC improves on that in the near future.

[flintysooner]

Many major retailers are quite large and have considerable bureaucracies devoted to their expansion - if they are expanding. Oklahoma is a relatively small market and is usually lumped in with other larger states to form a region. So first opportunities in Oklahoma have to compete with others in its region and those that make the cut have to compete with other national possibilities. Eventually a list of opportunities is present to a board committee in some state usually a long ways from Oklahoma and reviewed by people who often have never been in Oklahoma and actually believe stereotypes are truth.

The people making the presentation of course learn pretty quickly that safer is better when it comes to job security. So normally if you have an Oklahoma City prospect competing with say a San Diego prospect it is safer to choose the latter.

One major exception is Wal-Mart which itself is located nearby in Bentonville. And some major retailers do shortcut the whole process and just follow Wal-Mart around which has proved fairly successful for many. But many others still view Wal-Mart as a hick operation that can't possibly be very smart.

Really though this isn't as much a negative as it is often perceived because it does allow local businesses a bit of an advantage. On the other hand those can't pay as much rent as the majors so that has helped keep the real estate development cheaper.

In a strange way the big recession helped Oklahoma City some because there were fewer places in competition. Oklahoma City's economy stood out because everyone else was so depressed.

Given enough time though these things will level out.

[okcpulse]

Originally Posted by bchris02

I've heard rumors that new retailers actually do look at OKC but then the Tulsa Chamber of Commerce comes in and convinces them that Tulsa is a better choice than OKC.

You would be correct.

[okcpulse]

Originally Posted by okie1962

LOL It's all Tulsa fault! I don't mean any disrespect towards my OKC friends, but maybe Tulsa does a better job attracting these business. When these companies look at expanding into Oklahoma it's not like they have to pick one city over another, they could move into OKC as easily as Tulsa.

He's not blaming Tulsa, okie1962. Tulsa's recruiters have been known to do this. Tulsa does do a great job recruiting retailers, however it is not a good practice to do it at the expense of a neighbor.

Just look at how many times on here alone OKC's successes get downplayed by people from Tulsa.

[okie1962]

Originally Posted by okcpulse

He's not blaming Tulsa, okie1962. Tulsa's recruiters have been known to do this. Tulsa does do a great job recruiting retailers, however it is not a good practice to do it at the expense of a neighbor.

Just look at how many times on here alone OKC's successes get downplayed by people from Tulsa.

Maybe OKC should spend more time improving their house and less time blaming others for their short comings.