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I think another important thing the city of Philadelphia could do to help sustain population growth is to put a stronger emphasis on being a cheaper alternative for New Yorkers to live. Perhaps creating a strong marketing campaign geared specifically towards New Yorkers who want to move to a cheaper city with great urban amenities but don't want to move too far away from family and friends who still live in NYC.
The city's geographical location is almost perfect and I think if Philly is able to pull this off, it will only accelerate the population growth even faster.
Oddly, you mentioned the homicide issue first, yet that wasn't an issue until I mentioned it, maybe cuz I added the highest big city poverty rate? Also known as facts. Sensitive? Please. Nice backpedaling though...
Ooooookay? Does it really matter who brought up homicide first? I'm talking about Philly here, which everyone from the city knows this is a REAL problem. Which can effect city growth, and how attractive it is for the safety of newcomers. Surprisingly enough, it didn't dampen our growth rate.
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Maybe it's because I pointed out that Philly among many legacy cities annexed cities, towns, and land in the 19th century that refuted the theory that PHX growth should be discounted due to the fact that it did the same thing but way after Philly did.
I never said it didn't count. I said, I never looked at it as a city. Less dense, wider streets, spaced houses, tiny skyline, lack of overhead El/subway. My opinion doesn't discredit it as a city. (So we can dismiss that please)
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Face it, Phoenix is has a higher population than Philly. Instead of defending your actual statements, you bow-out with post-statements mish-mash feelings-backpedaling to a discussion of metro populations.
What did I miss here? Please, explain where I didn't defend myself? I backpedal so much, and have yet to pedal forward. Uhmm... maybe the thread is about population so, I'm trying to stay on the topic of city population, not metro population. Never said that!
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Why mention the decline in homicides that ended 5 years ago...then PHX homeless problem? wtf?
Because homicide is important, and it effects the citizens. It changes people minds on whether they should move in or out. Whatever the previous commissioner, and city administration were doing at that time was working. The point was that they should stick to those efforts and plans. Keep the city safe, and more business/residents will come. Despite that, Philly still grew that decade. Hah
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This is supposed to be a discussion forum but that can't happen when people discuss feelings vs. facts.
What??? I'm talking Philly's homeless. Here let me quote that for you since you properly misread it.
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All I meant was that it feels like Philly had a more traditional growth rate than PHX considering the city's homeless encampments, opioids, and homicidal problems over annexing.
Pay attention! I'm aware of my city's issues. You just want to be quick to call me out as back peddler, and sensitive. As you did to others! These are Philly facts vs your sensitivity. My point is that we still grew while still facing all these issues.
MPK21 You seem to know all things Phoenix. So, besides annexing, is there a way you can show me how much Phoenix grew from transplants? I'm just curious on how many citizens it's attracting? This will be interesting to see because Philly isn't too far behind, and 4,342(not 5,000) really isn't that much at all. Don't take this as me downplaying Phoenix, I'm just curious, that's all. I know you get sensitive.
It's the effect of black flight out of Philadelphia, the largest decline in the city's black population on record. The POC diversity is being driven by hispanic and asian population growth. Philly's smallest decline in white population since the 1940s. That is very exciting. With Philly being geographically positioned between DC and NYC, it's hard for me to imagine it won't one day become at least a DC 2.0.
I sure as hell hope that never happens.
At least I hope it doesn't if the result is that we get an influx of self-important Official Washingtonians — the people who believe they're doing the most important jobs in the world (for many of them, the guy who hauls their trash away every week is performing a more valuable service to the nation) and whose first question on a date or encounter is "So what do you do?"
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Originally Posted by KaM n.p.
That's such a shame! Very interesting! I'm a younger millennial so I'm unaware of some passed city decisions. You learn something new everyday. So, which "commuter tunnel"(tunnels) are we speaking of? I wonder would he had made that same decision if the city's population never declined back in the 60s, and 70s? It would be a higher priority with a population of 2 million with advanced modes of transit one would think.
The Center City Commuter Rail Connection, better known as the "Commuter Tunnel," opened in 1984 under Filbert and 8th-9th streets. It connects the formerly separate suburban systems of the Pennsylvania Railroad, which terminated at Suburban Station, and the Reading Railroad, all of whose passenger trains ended at the Reading Terminal at 12th and Market streets (hence the building's name). The Commiuter Tunnel gave this city something no other city in the United States has: a single, unified regrional rail network whose trains operate through rather than to the city center.
In a metropolis that has a history of city-suburb animosity that has largely but not completely disappeared, this project was a true regional asset, and I believe that influenced Rizzo's decision even though the Broad Street Subway Northeast Spur (Boulevard subway) would have carried more passengers through it every day.
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Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly
I think another important thing the city of Philadelphia could do to help sustain population growth is to put a stronger emphasis on being a cheaper alternative for New Yorkers to live. Perhaps creating a strong marketing campaign geared specifically towards New Yorkers who want to move to a cheaper city with great urban amenities but don't want to move too far away from family and friends who still live in NYC.
The city's geographical location is almost perfect and I think if Philly is able to pull this off, it will only accelerate the population growth even faster.
I don't think we need to advertise this: the Brooklynites already know. (More people move from that NYC borough to Philadelphia than any other. The population flows between Philly and Manhattan are net towards Manhattan.)
Nice, that all checks out. I have a hunch that if you looked at the numbers town-by-town, you'd see that a lot of the Black population is moving to the inner-ring suburbs. When people who formerly could afford to live in say Cedar Park or Mt. Airy no longer can, they look at options like Cheltenham, Bensalem, Upper Darby, etc. which tend to be more practical for raising a family, but are still not too far from the city. Chester, notably, lacks inner-ring suburbs. So SCR, I think the answer to your question is "yes, to an extent." There are still "affordable" options in the city limits, but they don't tend to be as appealing as the inner-ring suburbs. And I say all of this acknowledging that people of all races are being priced out of certain areas. The real estate appreciation in Philadelphia has been pretty wild, especially this past year.
The suburban county stats are fascinating. It is exciting to see that our suburbs are diversifying, as I think we are one of the few major metros that still has this "lily white suburbs" stereotype, especially on the PA side.
When are income stats and poverty rates released? It will be interesting to see info on the suburban counties. I predict all of them have become wealthier since 2010 AND clearly more diverse. It would be great to see two traditionally opposite trends align.
I'm also interested to see if Chester County ranks among America's wealthiest counties. It usually flirts with top 25.
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl
The attitude towards SEPTA in much of the rest of the state is, "Let Philadelphia pay for it." When the state legislature was trying to come up with another source for permanent funding for mass transit statewide after the Supreme Court threw out its original source (a tax on utilities) in the 1990s, the grumbling in the T was that the legislature was going to toll I-80 users to pay for SEPTA. (The Federal law that allowed tolls on up to four highways built with Interstate Highway Act money forbade use of the toll revenue on anything other than the tolled road, but our solons in Harrisburg kept trying to rejigger the numbers to make it look like that was what they were doing when they weren't.
We could dust off the 1913 rapid transit expansion plan and attempt to build some of the lines on it that never got built, I guess.
KaM n.p.: The reason we don't have a subway running up Roosevelt Boulevard was because of a decision Mayor Frank Rizzo made. The city had applied to the Feds for money for both it and the Center City Commuter Tunnel; outgoing Transportation Secretary William Coleman (a Black Republican from Philadelphia) called his old friend Rizzo on Coleman's last day on the job to tell Rizzo that he could approve only one. Rizzo told him to okay the Commuter Tunnel, saying that "we can get to the subway in a later phase."
That "later phase" never came to pass.
And who pays for that? That would cost 10s of billions. I am all for it, but seems like a pipe dream.
As much as I want the KoP connection, I say take those billions and invest in new city lines and upgrades and increase frequency on regional rail lines. The Wawa extension is already well underway at least.
Also, why doesn't SEPTA have the RFID readers for subways like the MTA in New York? I don't utilize SEPTA much anymore but it all seems odd and overly confusing, even when I am home for a weekend utilizing the regional rail.
I think another important thing the city of Philadelphia could do to help sustain population growth is to put a stronger emphasis on being a cheaper alternative for New Yorkers to live. Perhaps creating a strong marketing campaign geared specifically towards New Yorkers who want to move to a cheaper city with great urban amenities but don't want to move too far away from family and friends who still live in NYC.
The city's geographical location is almost perfect and I think if Philly is able to pull this off, it will only accelerate the population growth even faster.
The fact that Philly's population grew the past decade is no surprise as some estimates had it at about 1,590,000+ or so.
The fact that the Philly's population broke 1.6 million could very well be due in part to the news last year during the first several months of the pandemic that Philly attracted a surplus of New Yorkers, the first time this has occurred. The churn between Philly-NYC always had Philly on the losing side with more folks leaving Philly for NYC than those NYers coming down to Philly.
So I think the idea that Philly is a less expensive and nearby alternative to NYC may be taking root already; add in the a marketing campaign or two and Philly's appeal should get some positive results.
The fact that Philly's population grew the past decade is no surprise as some estimates had it at about 1,590,000+ or so.
The fact that the Philly's population broke 1.6 million could very well be due in part to the news last year during the first several months of the pandemic that Philly attracted a surplus of New Yorkers, the first time this has occurred. The churn between Philly-NYC always had Philly on the losing side with more folks leaving Philly for NYC than those NYers coming down to Philly.
So I think the idea that Philly is a less expensive and nearby alternative to NYC may be taking root already; add in the a marketing campaign or two and Philly's appeal should get some positive results.
The net migration towards Philadelphia from New York City is not a COVID-induced phenomenon — it's been going on for some time now. From the Pew Charitable Trusts' 2016 report "A Portrait of Philadelphia Migration," which updated a 2010 report it issued on the same subject using IRS migration data with figures for 2010-13:
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And in 2013, more people moved to Philadelphia from New York City than in the opposite direction, repeating a pattern seen in the data for most of the past 20 years.
(emphasis added)
A recent Center City District report on migration patterns that used Census Bureau American Community Survey data stated that the trend turned positive in 2015, but if you look at the 10-year time series of figures reported in it, you will find that the pattern turned positive again that year after a three-year period where the net flow was in the opposite direction; 2010 and 2011 figures also showed net migration towards Philadelphia.
And while this 2005 New York Times story on New Yorkers moving to Philly is long on anecdote and short on data (because anecdotes make for better news stories than numbers do), the reasons the New Yorkers-turned-Philadelphians quoted in it gave for moving jibe with what all the analyses point to as reasons for moving. (The author of this article, who was a contributor to Philadelphia Weekly at the time, got some hate for writing that "Philadelphians occasionally refer to their city -- somewhat deprecatingly -- as the 'sixth borough' of New York". Most Philadelphians I know or have met do not refer to this city as an appendage of New York, nor do they want it to be one.)
What COVID did, if anything, was shift the net population flow towards Philly into a higher gear.
I think another important thing the city of Philadelphia could do to help sustain population growth is to put a stronger emphasis on being a cheaper alternative for New Yorkers to live. Perhaps creating a strong marketing campaign geared specifically towards New Yorkers who want to move to a cheaper city with great urban amenities but don't want to move too far away from family and friends who still live in NYC.
The city's geographical location is almost perfect and I think if Philly is able to pull this off, it will only accelerate the population growth even faster.
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl
The net migration towards Philadelphia from New York City is not a COVID-induced phenomenon — it's been going on for some time now. From the Pew Charitable Trusts' 2016 report "A Portrait of Philadelphia Migration," which updated a 2010 report it issued on the same subject using IRS migration data with figures for 2010-13:
(emphasis added)
A recent Center City District report on migration patterns that used Census Bureau American Community Survey data stated that the trend turned positive in 2015, but if you look at the 10-year time series of figures reported in it, you will find that the pattern turned positive again that year after a three-year period where the net flow was in the opposite direction; 2010 and 2011 figures also showed net migration towards Philadelphia.
And while this 2005 New York Times story on New Yorkers moving to Philly is long on anecdote and short on data (because anecdotes make for better news stories than numbers do), the reasons the New Yorkers-turned-Philadelphians quoted in it gave for moving jibe with what all the analyses point to as reasons for moving. (The author of this article, who was a contributor to Philadelphia Weekly at the time, got some hate for writing that "Philadelphians occasionally refer to their city -- somewhat deprecatingly -- as the 'sixth borough' of New York". Most Philadelphians I know or have met do not refer to this city as an appendage of New York, nor do they want it to be one.)
What COVID did, if anything, was shift the net population flow towards Philly into a higher gear.
Anecdotal data point to back this up: I know of 2 different people from NYC who are considering a move to Philadelphia for these very reasons. One lives in Manhattan, the other in Brooklyn. Both can now work fully or nearly fully remotely, and want to continue living in an urban East Coast setting, without the NYC price tag. One of them needs the ability to get into the Manhattan-based office on occasion, which wouldn't be too rough from Philadelphia, especially since it'd be less than 1/week. They have also, in so many words, expressed some fatigue with the insane pace of life in NYC, and are thinking of finding a bit more balance in Philadelphia. But, neither are committed, and while I do think Philadelphia is the best option for someone looking for something of a NYC-lite lifestyle, and the ability to continue visiting, there is just no replicating everything NYC has to offer. We shall see what they decide.
I'm excited for the prospect of both of them moving, as one is my friend, and the other my cousin. I just need SOME of my network in NYC to stay, so that I always have a couch to bum on when I visit.
It's the effect of black flight out of Philadelphia, the largest decline in the city's black population on record. The POC diversity is being driven by hispanic and asian population growth. Philly's smallest decline in white population since the 1940s. That is very exciting. With Philly being geographically positioned between DC and NYC, it's hard for me to imagine it won't one day become at least a DC 2.0.
Lol! I see what you did there. Well, you know, DC 2.0, minus all of the free, nationally funded museums and monuments, plethora of greek revival architecture, plethora of federal government employees, the White House and Congress, uppity transplants, etc. Moreover, DC 2.0, plus far more interesting, dynamic neighborhoods, a superior mixed-use downtown, enduring local/regional culture, a much more vibrant and dynamic nightlife scene, tightly woven streets ideal for pedestrians and human-scale activity, an actual skyline, the ability to vote on US senators, Wawas, etc.
So yeah, otherwise, we'll probably be DC 2.0 one day.
The fact that the Philly's population broke 1.6 million could very well be due in part to the news last year during the first several months of the pandemic that Philly attracted a surplus of New Yorkers, the first time this has occurred.
The census count is based on where one lived on 4/1/20 so unlikely a pandemic surge but I agree in general that migration from the NYC metro was not insignificant since 2010.
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Does it really matter who brought up homicide first? I'm talking about Philly here, which everyone from the city knows this is a REAL problem. Which can effect city growth, and how attractive it is for the safety of newcomers. Surprisingly enough, it didn't dampen our growth rate.
