Buying an old house-how old is too old? (Phoenix: new home, maintenance)

[CheyDee]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Who told you that? PEX leaches MTBE particularly when new at rates that greatly exceed safe drinking water standards. It is permeable to oils and things like pesticides. I produces toxic smoke in fires. The standards in place for PEX in many states (I don't know about AZ) call for a life of 25 years which is less than the typical mortgage lasts. I don't necessarily think it is bad, but it is hardly head and shoulders over copper and not something that I would base a purchase decision (one way or another) on.

I built a home addition in Oklahoma with PEX plumbing and had and interesting problem. During the winter when it was unoccupied, mice (or worse) would nibble holes in it and it would leak. More interesting: they only ate the red pipes. Must be cherry flavored. It is easy to fix, though.

What PEX is, is cheap and easy to install so builders can have minimally skilled workers put it in and pay them peanuts.

You are correct that PEX is not completely issue free, however, neither is copper. Even with "lead-free" solder (<0.2% lead), soldering flux is toxic and corrosive to the copper. There are also galvanic & chemical reactions, which cause corrosion and leaks. Additionally, copper is recognized as a threat to human health and the environment.

PEX is fully warrantied for 25 years, (which is longer than many other home features and has no relationship to one's mortgage); while copper plumbing is "technically" warrantied for 50 years, I put that in quotes because the disclaimer is it is not warrantied where there is "aggressive" water, which is what we have .

I could go on and on, but this is getting too off topic. Instead I will post this link, which links further to PEX and copper pipe manufacturer's warranties. At the very bottom of the page, there is also a link showing actual pics of copper pipe failures.

As for what is cheaper to use, copper has the higher mark-up. They get you with the installation and again with the repairs.

[gtbguy]

Originally Posted by jimj

I also wonder about the copper tubing comment. I assume you mean plumbing? If so, I'll take copper over the plastic tubing they use now any day.

I meant plumbing. Really hard water (especially if you have sulfur in your water) can eventually erode the inside of copper tubing. If you've got a cement slab and this happens, you can imagine the cost to put in plastic pecks tubing. I prefer pecks over copper anyway, and so do plumbers. The stubs will be copper but that is it.

I also understand (don't know for sure) eventually water softeners are going to be phased out because of all the salt that is eventually ending up in the aquifer or water sources. So, that being the case you can't use them to soften your water.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by gtbguy

I meant plumbing. Really hard water (especially if you have sulfur in your water) can eventually erode the inside of copper tubing. If you've got a cement slab and this happens, you can imagine the cost to put in plastic pecks tubing. I prefer pecks over copper anyway, and so do plumbers. The stubs will be copper but that is it.

I also understand (don't know for sure) eventually water softeners are going to be phased out because of all the salt that is eventually ending up in the aquifer or water sources. So, that being the case you can't use them to soften your water.

Not to get too off topic the blanket statement "plumbers prefer PEX over copper" is simply not true. When we built our house in 2005/2006 our plumber refused to install PEX. Almost all my neighbors did install PEX and when they had fittings busting and had to rip out sheetrock (some multiple times) we were leak free.
We had several builders who were friends as well as a couple plumbers and they all said that the only reason they used PEX was cost (install time being part of that cost) but the one big flaw in PEX was the joints and their propensity for failure.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by gtbguy

I meant plumbing. Really hard water (especially if you have sulfur in your water) can eventually erode the inside of copper tubing. If you've got a cement slab and this happens, you can imagine the cost to put in plastic pecks tubing. I prefer pecks over copper anyway, and so do plumbers. The stubs will be copper but that is it.

I also understand (don't know for sure) eventually water softeners are going to be phased out because of all the salt that is eventually ending up in the aquifer or water sources. So, that being the case you can't use them to soften your water.

Acidic water is a problem for copper, not basic. "Aggressive water" with respect to Cu plumbing is a pH lower than 6.5. AZ water is NOT aggressive to copper as a rule and has a high CaCO3 content which is good. Softened water is moderately more corrosive but not enough to be of concern. RO water is corrosive but typically is not pushed through the whole house. Even if it were, it would take many decades to erode through a type L tube. Pinholes do occur in copper due to defects mostly and leaking occurs in PEX due to improper installation and failed fittings as well.

Bottom line: Cu versus PEX should not be an issue in buying a house in the Phoenix area. I think some people just like to promote what THEY have or their builder offers without any science or fact behind it. My suggestion is that people focus on the three things that do matter when choosing a home: location, location, and location

[jimj]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Acidic water is a problem for copper, not basic. "Aggressive water" with respect to Cu plumbing is a pH lower than 6.5. AZ water is NOT aggressive to copper as a rule and has a high CaCO3 content which is good. Softened water is moderately more corrosive but not enough to be of concern. RO water is corrosive but typically is not pushed through the whole house. Even if it were, it would take many decades to erode through a type L tube. Pinholes do occur in copper due to defects mostly and leaking occurs in PEX due to improper installation and failed fittings as well.

Bottom line: Cu versus PEX should not be an issue in buying a house in the Phoenix area. I think some people just like to promote what THEY have or their builder offers without any science or fact behind it. My suggestion is that people focus on the three things that do matter when choosing a home: location, location, and location

Reps to ya, the last part of what you say is really the bottom line!

[gtbguy]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Acidic water is a problem for copper, not basic. "Aggressive water" with respect to Cu plumbing is a pH lower than 6.5. AZ water is NOT aggressive to copper as a rule and has a high CaCO3 content which is good. Softened water is moderately more corrosive but not enough to be of concern. RO water is corrosive but typically is not pushed through the whole house. Even if it were, it would take many decades to erode through a type L tube. Pinholes do occur in copper due to defects mostly and leaking occurs in PEX due to improper installation and failed fittings as well.

I've never had problems with copper or PEX but for me I prefer PEX since it is much easier to work with from the beginning and later if you have a problem. At the end of the day you get what you get and be happy with it. These days copper is pricey but then again PEX isn't cheap either!

[DellNec]

Phoenix area average roof life: Asphalt Shingle = 10-15 years / Tile Roof = 25 years. The cost to replace a tile roof is double that of a asphalt roof.

Older homes 1960-1990 usually have single pane windows, A/C units on the roof (really bad), copper plumbing (Phoenix hard water destroys copper over years), poor insulation in walls and ceilings. Some even have aluminum wiring (REALLY bad and dangerous).

The sun and heat really take a toll on the homes wood, roof and A/C units.

I would only buy 2003+. Your energy costs will always be less due to better A/C units, better insulation, better windows, etc.

[observer53]

Originally Posted by DellNec

Phoenix area average roof life: Asphalt Shingle = 10-15 years / Tile Roof = 25 years. The cost to replace a tile roof is double that of a asphalt roof.

Older homes 1960-1990 usually have single pane windows, A/C units on the roof (really bad), copper plumbing (Phoenix hard water destroys copper over years), poor insulation in walls and ceilings. Some even have aluminum wiring (REALLY bad and dangerous).

The sun and heat really take a toll on the homes wood, roof and A/C units.

I would only buy 2003+. Your energy costs will always be less due to better A/C units, better insulation, better windows, etc.

Again, I think you have to look at the individual house, and not automatically write off a house just because of its age. My AC is on the ground, thank you, always has been, in a 26 year old house. Every house in my area, from many different builders, is like that.

Many older homes have had windows and insulation upgraded from the original, and roofs replaced already. A properly maintained and upgraded older home is a viable option... and often better built than the ones that went up overnight during the boom, or others built in relatively more recent times. As said before, on those issues, a lot depends on the original builder.

[DellNec]

Originally Posted by observer53

Many older homes have had windows and insulation upgraded from the original, and roofs replaced already. A properly maintained and upgraded older home is a viable option... and often better built than the ones that went up overnight during the boom, or others built in relatively more recent times. As said before, on those issues, a lot depends on the original builder.

IF the home has been upgraded, that is a totally different scenario. But even so, most upgrades do NOT include ripping all the drywall down and putting in more insulation. The roof/attic is easy to do as you have access to it, but the interior walls do not.

Replacing all the old windows with newer windows typically runs $10K - $20K depending on the window types and quantity.

It's like an older car, if it had good maintenance and if the parts were upgraded to newer ones, it can prove to be a good car. On the other hand, the older car can turn into a costly money pit. Either way, the older car will not have the same energy efficiency (MPG) and reliability of a newer car. The laws of thermodynamics can not be ignored in both cars and homes.

A friend of mine owns a older home (1985) and it's about 1,600 square feet. His monthly summer electrical bill runs around $300. Another friend of mine owns a newer home (2007) and it is about 3,800 square feet. His monthly summer electrical bills runs around $230. The latter is twice the home size yet his electric bill is lower.

Neither of them have a pool and both keep the thermostat temps in the 78F range. It all comes down to the newer home having a more efficient A/C system, better wall insulation, better attic insulation, better energy efficient windows, etc.

[DellNec]

Most people don't realize that homes have a "life expectancy". A wood framed home in Phoenix will have a 40-75 year expectancy. Barring of course termite infestations or water & rot damage which can drop it to 10 years. On appraisal reports appraisers are required to enter in a life expectancy. When that home reaches it's life expectancy it is deemed functionally obsolete. At which time it needs to be bulldozed or a completely major rehab $$$$ needs to be done.

Now a true concrete home (structural walls are made out of 100% concrete - no wood), can last hundreds of years, but that is another topic.