Buying an old house-how old is too old? (Phoenix: home builder, construction)

[rgscpat]

$10k to $20k to upgrade windows? That seems rather high.

[DellNec]

Originally Posted by rgscpat

$10k to $20k to upgrade windows? That seems rather high.

That is the average cost for removal and install. Remember, they have to REMOVE the old window and the entire window framing. This requires cutting into the walls of the home. That means stucco damage on the outside and drywall damage on the inside and subsequent repair. Also, when the old window is removed, if the wood frame is rotted or damaged, it must be pulled and replaced.

Removing old windows is not easy or a DIY job. There is double or triple the amount of work when removing old windows versus installing new windows in a brand new home. This extra labor equals more $$$.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by DellNec

That is the average cost for removal and install. Remember, they have to REMOVE the old window and the entire window framing. This requires cutting into the walls of the home. That means stucco damage on the outside and drywall damage on the inside and subsequent repair. Also, when the old window is removed, if the wood frame is rotted or damaged, it must be pulled and replaced.

Removing old windows is not easy or a DIY job. There is double or triple the amount of work when removing old windows versus installing new windows in a brand new home. This extra labor equals more $$$.

Not always. When I had all my windows replaced the company quoted me a price that included a window that would not require them to remove the current window frames. If they use retrofit windows there's no need to do all of that. As for wall insulation, there is a process for adding insulation which consists of drilling holes and blowing in more. Seen it done several times to older houses.

[ReadyFreddy]

I had nice, vinyl, double pane windows put in as replacements on just the south wall of a house I had and it was around $3300, I think. I imagine it would've been about $8k-10k to do the whole 1800 SF house. I don't think it was needed, though. I did it mainly for aesthetics.

Old windows aren't as efficient but (from an appraisal standpoint) they're not considered 'deferred maintenance' as long as they're intact and basically functional. I would say they usually or frequently last the life of the house, unlike a roof or A/C unit. The really old casement style windows are pretty beefy.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by ReadyFreddy

I had nice, vinyl, double pane windows put in as replacements on just the south wall of a house I had and it was around $3300, I think. I imagine it would've been about $8k-10k to do the whole 1800 SF house. I don't think it was needed, though. I did it mainly for aesthetics.

Old windows aren't as efficient but (from an appraisal standpoint) they're not considered 'deferred maintenance' as long as they're intact and basically functional. I would say they usually or frequently last the life of the house, unlike a roof or A/C unit. The really old casement style windows are pretty beefy.

Old style casement windows are actually the most energy efficient of all windows from research that we did when looking to replace windows in Montana. That being said, I've heard some very persuasive arguments that new double pane windows are not really needed in most of AZ, that single pane are just fine.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by jimj

Old style casement windows are actually the most energy efficient of all windows from research that we did when looking to replace windows in Montana. That being said, I've heard some very persuasive arguments that new double pane windows are not really needed in most of AZ, that single pane are just fine.

Low E is the key here. Unless you get low e glass, the dual panes have very little value in a cooling environment where heat gain is overwhelmingly radiant. Even then, it is not going to make much difference on the bill. And you can always use blinds or curtains. Anything that blocks radiant heat will help. The best energy upgrade you can do (or look for in a home) in Phoenix area is a high efficiency AC. The rest of it is just nibbling around the edges.

Which brings up an interesting point on older homes. There has been a trend toward more and larger windows in homes from homes of say the 80s until now. There is no window, single, dual or low-e that is as good energy-wise as no window at all. A modern home with huge windows, window walls, two or more 10 foot patio doors and so on loses and gains a lot of heat compared to an older one without those dramatic features. Another modern design feature that hurts energy efficiency here is the trend toward eliminating roof overhangs/eaves. Overhangs partially shield walls and sometimes even windows. Depending on orientation, that can matter. Overhangs also direct rain water further from the foundation.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Low E is the key here. Unless you get low e glass, the dual panes have very little value in a cooling environment where heat gain is overwhelmingly radiant. Even then, it is not going to make much difference on the bill. And you can always use blinds or curtains. Anything that blocks radiant heat will help. The best energy upgrade you can do (or look for in a home) in Phoenix area is a high efficiency AC. The rest of it is just nibbling around the edges.

Which brings up an interesting point on older homes. There has been a trend toward more and larger windows in homes from homes of say the 80s until now. There is no window, single, dual or low-e that is as good energy-wise as no window at all. A modern home with huge windows, window walls, two or more 10 foot patio doors and so on loses and gains a lot of heat compared to an older one without those dramatic features. Another modern design feature that hurts energy efficiency here is the trend toward eliminating roof overhangs/eaves. Overhangs partially shield walls and sometimes even windows. Depending on orientation, that can matter. Overhangs also direct rain water further from the foundation.

Speaking of rain, what's the deal with the lack of gutters here? It's certainly not a problem with leaves clogging 'em up. This is the first place we've ever lived where no gutters is the norm.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by jimj

Speaking of rain, what's the deal with the lack of gutters here? It's certainly not a problem with leaves clogging 'em up. This is the first place we've ever lived where no gutters is the norm.

Ha ha, what rain? So many houses are like mine too, where the different roof planes converge at the entry way. Can't go out the front without getting soaked. But then, who uses the front door around here either?

[observer53]

Originally Posted by jimj

Speaking of rain, what's the deal with the lack of gutters here? It's certainly not a problem with leaves clogging 'em up. This is the first place we've ever lived where no gutters is the norm.

Well, sometimes it is.. the roofer I used to have was very happy when I took the silk oak out of my front yard. Messy leaves playing havoc with the roof valleys and the gutters. I have gutters, but don't have water coming out of them as often as I might in other places, for sure....

[DellNec]

Originally Posted by jimj

Not always. When I had all my windows replaced the company quoted me a price that included a window that would not require them to remove the current window frames. If they use retrofit windows there's no need to do all of that. As for wall insulation, there is a process for adding insulation which consists of drilling holes and blowing in more. Seen it done several times to older houses.

Not removing old window frames is like buying a new car with half of its parts already being used and old.

The window frame makes up 50% of the thermal value of the window. Plus many newer windows will not work properly in a 15 year old window frame. What about resealing the window frame membranes? Those don't last forever, they have a 20-30 year life span. How would you put in a vinyl window within an aluminum window frame?

The insulation method you speak of never gets full consolidation. You can't get around the proper method of installing insulation PRIOR to drywall install. While it is better than not doing anything, drilling holes and blowing in cellulose will never result in proper full consolidation.