Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If we are so darn inhospitable, how come people are still moving here in droves? And as for the school issue, there are plenty of charter and private schools for all these elite Californians to put their kids in. Who ever said we want all of California to move here anyway? We have half of NY and LI coming here. Isn't that enough?? Maybe the big companies should stay put so we will have less pollution in our valley. We are not a joke in the media. Many other states look to AZ for direction and it makes me proud. JMHO
Depends on what type of people you are are talking about; the authors are talking about educated professionals who create and fulfill high skilled jobs not bubba and his tea party buddies who want to carry guns into schools and federal buildings. We don't want all Californians to move here, just the ones who can add value to our economy. The only states that look to AZ for direction are the ones who are even more backward than us and seek to push along more right wing hysteria
So in your opinion the same people who helped wreck California are the ones who would bring value to Arizona...not bloodly likely......I bet most of them probably think California is doing great.....lol
Regardless people are coming in droves.....with just me and my wifes move it will in fact be a net gain of 10 from Illinois once the in-laws and other relatives make the move all within a year.....azriverfan..sorry but I think that means you've lost your vote by 9...lol
That's my intent -- to get people to stop listening to media-mania, and actually start thinking about education. A good teacher just doesn't tell students what to learn.
If the people of Arizona want a quality education program, they need to look around the country to where there are successful programs...and there are many. They need to find out how to improve school programs, without falling back on knee-jerk political babble. They need to forget that they think they are experts because they went to school (because even the biggest moron in the country also went to school). It's possible to have a high quality educational program, without paying top dollar for it (although you probably won't pay bargain-basement costs for it, either).
You know, one day my neighbor was ranting and raving about Benghazi. And after she finally ran down I asked her, "Where is Benghazi?" She didn't know what country it was in. I asked her to spell it. She couldn't. I asked her to point it out on a map. According to her, Benghazi is somewhere in India.
Another day, this same neighbor was ranting and raving about Common Core. I asked her to name one thing that was in Common Core. Just one. Of course, she couldn't. It was all media-babble on her part.
Arizonans need to get beyond media/political babble on a number of topics it they want to improve their state. They need to stop worrying about whether someone moving to Arizona is from California or Illinois or Minnesota, or Colorado, or Virginia, or wherever. Wherever they are from they can teach people something...for good or for ill, but either way, you learn...what to do or what not to do.
I know well a superintendent from (well, let's say) the Tucson "area"...past or present doesn't matter. I told him at one point before retirement that I was considering a job in Arizona. He counseled me not to even think of it. A dead end, as he put it. But I said he was (or had been) in Arizona, and he replied, "Only because that's where my wife's mother and father and family live."
So I would suggest that you ought to be asking more questions. You learn more by asking questions than you do by giving answers.
I don't listen to the "media mania" nor parrot them. I'm as fiscally conservative as they come but I cannot stomach listening to the likes of Shawn Hannity. I have been to several school board meetings and asked their opinion and their thoughts have changed some of my views. In summary, the schools are between a rock and a hard space. I've therefore done my best to help others understand the importance of funding education even though no business or school is as frugal as they could be. So as you see, I'm an independent but you like to assume otherwise.
I really get upset with families that don't try hard to do their best in school. People are paying hard earned tax dollars for people that don't care. If I was in charge and I am not, I'd do away with much of the welfare that is corrupting the motivation of families (and gives them more $$'s for having more children). That's my opinion. Yet you write that opinions like mine are not worth anything and you are smarter because you were in education. But mysteriously you have avoided giving any suggestions on why Phoenix areas education is broken and how you would fix it. You only ask questions. So how about it... What's your ideas? Did they pay you to only ask questions? What would you do if you wave a wand? Class is in session.
So in your opinion the same people who helped wreck California are the ones who would bring value to Arizona...not bloodly likely......I bet most of them probably think California is doing great.....lol
Regardless people are coming in droves.....with just me and my wifes move it will in fact be a net gain of 10 from Illinois once the in-laws and other relatives make the move all within a year.....azriverfan..sorry but I think that means you've lost your vote by 9...lol
That's just rhetoric. The people who are leaving CA don't appreciate their state because it is broken. Business are pulling out and relocating. That's the point. Who wants them?
We get it. IL is a train wreck. Just about any state is going to look incredible in comparison. You know what freebies (welfare) does to society. That's why quality people are leaving your state.
I don't listen to the "media mania" nor parrot them. I'm as fiscally conservative as they come but I cannot stomach listening to the likes of Shawn Hannity. I have been to several school board meetings and asked their opinion and their thoughts have changed some of my views. In summary, the schools are between a rock and a hard space. I've therefore done my best to help others understand the importance of funding education even though no business or school is as frugal as they could be. So as you see, I'm an independent but you like to assume otherwise.
I really get upset with families that don't try hard to do their best in school. People are paying hard earned tax dollars for people that don't care. If I was in charge and I am not, I'd do away with much of the welfare that is corrupting the motivation of families (and gives them more $$'s for having more children). That's my opinion. Yet you write that opinions like mine are not worth anything and you are smarter because you were in education. But mysteriously you have avoided giving any suggestions on why Phoenix areas education is broken and how you would fix it. You only ask questions. So how about it... What's your ideas? Did they pay you to only ask questions? What would you do if you wave a wand? Class is in session.
Why do you think my post was about you? I didn't mention you at all in my post.
And I did answer what Arizona educators need to do, but it's not a short answer. But, I'll say it again. They need to find school districts nationwide that have a similar clientele which are being successful with their programs. And then they need to go to those districts and observe and learn, get in contact with the developers of various successful programs, get involved in some inservice work, and then put some of those programs in place in a few schools and grow the programs from there.
There is no short cut, such as phonics. Phonics was a fad. It worked for some. It was not the answer to effective learning for all. It was just one trick in what should have been a full bag of tricks.
There are many different learning styles, and some teachers need to get over using their favorite teaching style, and start using different teaching styles to approach a broad spectrum of learners.
There is no short answer. No wave of the magic wand. Teachers need to stop teaching the way they were taught, and start teaching the way learners learn.
A major theme of this thread has been what kind of jobs.
If it's just flipping hamburger level jobs, that okay, but doesn't do much for the state.
You only need to look at what are the top employers in the state to see what kind of jobs are here.
Wal-Mart Stores Inc.
Banner Health
Kroger Co.
Albertsons Inc.
Wells Fargo
McDonald's Corp.
Intel Corp.
Bank of America Corp.
JP Morgan Chase & Co.
Honeywell International Inc.
In the 90s the top non-governmental employer was Motorola, and Intel, Honeywell and Allied Signal were higher on the list. Now it's primarily retailers, banks and hospitals. The highest company that actually produces something is Intel at #7. We're pretty much selling stuff to each other.
You only need to look at what are the top employers in the state to see what kind of jobs are here.
Wal-Mart Stores Inc.
Banner Health
Kroger Co.
Albertsons Inc.
Wells Fargo
McDonald's Corp.
Intel Corp.
Bank of America Corp.
JP Morgan Chase & Co.
Honeywell International Inc.
In the 90s the top non-governmental employer was Motorola, and Intel, Honeywell and Allied Signal were higher on the list. Now it's primarily retailers, banks and hospitals. The highest company that actually produces something is Intel at #7. We're pretty much selling stuff to each other.
Not quite a complete analysis as you're just listing very large corporations. Don't forget small business employ the majority of people in this country.
Why do you think my post was about you? I didn't mention you at all in my post.
Really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Education is not easy, because working with unique minds and unique personalities is not a formula. And while "local control" of education seems to be some sort of mantra in the United States,I'm not at all sure that I want plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, dentists, doctors, lawyers, barbers, gardeners, grocery store workers, salesmen, and the unemployed deciding what works in education.
Wasn't it you that wrote this^^^ ? Since I'm in one of these groups, you suggested that you don't want to hear an opinion from professions in this group. I find that approach arrogant. You must have many opinion in life yet you are not in that field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
And I did answer what Arizona educators need to do, but it's not a short answer. But, I'll say it again. They need to find school districts nationwide that have a similar clientele which are being successful with their programs. And then they need to go to those districts and observe and learn, get in contact with the developers of various successful programs, get involved in some inservice work, and then put some of those programs in place in a few schools and grow the programs from there.
I'm giving you a failing grade. You didn't answer the question. "Find someone who is doing a good job with similar clientele and copy them" is dodging the question. I answered part of it. We are going backwards because welfare is helping people be lazy without consequences. Ween them off and the scores will get better and people who should not have kids will have less kids. I'm not saying society is prepared to make this decision but it's pretty obvious that helping people with give-aways can actually hurt people in the long-run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
There is no short cut, such as phonics. Phonics was a fad. It worked for some. It was not the answer to effective learning for all. It was just one trick in what should have been a full bag of tricks.
We are getting warmer but you are missing the big point. Families that don't care to learn rack up the biggest bill and yet they have the worse test scores. Address that point with your solution.
Were you suggesting that the districts with the lowest test scores in Phoenix (and spending the most amount of money) are teaching students the wrong way? Is their something in the teachers "bag of tricks" that you know about that is going to change that trend? Or maybe I'm right and the core problem is that the family culture is broken and the students don't care about school.
Even in Chandler High School, a full 23% of students are not passing AIMS writing and math which tests the most basic skills (see Chandler High School - Chandler, Arizona - AZ - School overview ). I propose a lot of those 23% of students don't care. So while it's obvious students learn differently from one another, your statement about using different bags of tricks is accurate so long as someone wants to learn.
I think we are talking about two very different problems. You are discussing teaching kids who at least want to learn because one size fits all. I'm talking about kids that don't care and spending too much money on them out of hope. That's not working. I'm also talking about making sure the funding is large enough for motivated students even inside of the poorest area districts.
Wasn't it you that wrote this^^^ ? Since I'm in one of these groups, you suggested that you don't want to hear an opinion from professions in this group. I find that approach arrogant. You must have many opinion in life yet you are not in that field.
Response: Why do you twist the truth in this response. I did not say that I "don't want to hear an opinion" from those groups. I said, I do not want them "deciding what works in education", and btw, the underlining and bolding are yours, and you still couldn't quote me accurately.
I'm giving you a failing grade. You didn't answer the question. "Find someone who is doing a good job with similar clientele and copy them" is dodging the question. I answered part of it. We are going backwards because welfare is helping people be lazy without consequences. Ween them off and the scores will get better and people who should not have kids will have less kids. I'm not saying society is prepared to make this decision but it's pretty obvious that helping people with give-aways can actually hurt people in the long-run. We are getting warmer but you are missing the big point. Families that don't care to learn rack up the biggest bill and yet they have the worse test scores. Address that point with your solution.
Response: I'm sorry, but it is not the schools' responsibility to solve the welfare issue. It is not the schools' responsibility to manipulate family life. It is not the schools' responsibility to improve the income of the parents who send children to them. It is only the responsibility of the schools to teach the children who come to them.
Were you suggesting that the districts with the lowest test scores in Phoenix (and spending the most amount of money) are teaching students the wrong way? Is their something in the teachers "bag of tricks" that you know about that is going to change that trend? Or maybe I'm right and the core problem is that the family culture is broken and the students don't care about school.
Response: Without going in and making extensive observations about the districts with the lowest scores in Phoenix, I cannot gauge what they are doing that is right or wrong (and neither can you). I cannot learn the qualifications of their teachers. I cannot judge their teacher and/or student evaluation systems. But I do know that every place I've been or seen, most teachers rely on one basic style of teaching, instead of being able to address different learning styles through different strategies. Again, it is not the schools' responsibility to fix a broken family culture. And if schools tried to do so, people would be up in arms.
Even in Chandler High School, a full 23% of students are not passing AIMS writing and math which tests the most basic skills (see Chandler High School - Chandler, Arizona - AZ - School overview ). I propose a lot of those 23% of students don't care. So while it's obvious students learn differently from one another, your statement about using different bags of tricks is accurate so long as someone wants to learn.
Response: It doesn't matter if they don't care. It is still the responsibility of public schools to teach them in the best ways possible. There are schools all over this country which have raised their test scores after instituting new teaching strategies that were based on analysis of testing data. It required change.
I think we are talking about two very different problems. You are discussing teaching kids who at least want to learn because one size fits all. I'm talking about kids that don't care and spending too much money on them out of hope. That's not working. I'm also talking about making sure the funding is large enough for motivated students even inside of the poorest area districts.
Response: I am talking about caring about and teaching all students. Not just the best and most brilliant. Not just the ones with the best parents. But every child who is going to have a role in shaping the future of this nation.
Response: I am talking about caring about and teaching all students. Not just the best and most brilliant. Not just the ones with the best parents. But every child who is going to have a role in shaping the future of this nation.
We agree with one key difference. Let's not waste our valuable resources of $23K per pupil like they do in some districts because most of those kids and families don't care. I firmly believe poor test scores are systemic because of our (welfare) "compassion". Darwin was was partially right (more of a sink or swim philosophy). Compassion needs to be cut off a certain point so that the don't short change kids who have higher potential but are stunted because AZ wastes it on babysitters in the classroom. If the Chandler districts needs to make due with $7500 and they are high potential students, why spend $23K per pupil on family cultures that don't care? To me at least, that's illogical.
I won't have to search too hard to find a lot of teachers that agree with me. They know where Benghazi is located as well so I guess they are qualified to have an opinion. I will also find a lot of people who have your viewpoint. If you think welfare helps more than it hurts family cultures, my opinion is that your viewpoint is part of the problem.
So you don't have any concrete suggestions for AZ schools?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
