ASU economists say we'll grow when our leaders stop looking stupid" (Phoenix: 2015, daycare)

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by Jukesgrrl

ASU economist Dennis Hoffman described the "vicious circle" our economy is now in:
-People won't move here until there are more high-paying jobs,
-We can't have high-paying jobs until companies and investors are convinced we have well-qualified and trained workers,
-They won't find those people here until we have better public education,
-Our lawmakers de-fund public education because we have a bad economy.

Good schools are a selling tool. I'm not necessarily convinced that if we improve our schools that we will just churn out these Bill Gates who will create companies overnight. I'm not disillusioned by this prospect.

Rather, having good schools is a carrot to luring talented people because they want their children to be afforded an excellent education. Engineers in the Bay area don't just examine cost of living. They also examine the political climate and aspects like their children's schools. Do they really want to relocate to an area that they perceive as endorsing bigotry and having poor schools? Do they want to raise their children in that environment. Of course they don't. So while they might deal with a higher cost of living and taxes and they are willing to put up with it because of the aforementioned above.

Now, I know how some will respond. Look at Texas. It's conservative and successful. Texas is vastly different. Texas has excellent public schools. All of the major cities in Texas have amazing schools. Texas is also conservative but it isn't recognized as being particularly bigoted. Furthermore, Texas has a wealth natural resources which they used to "fuel" their other industries. Arizona is in a very different precarious situation.

Arizona has a golden opportunity to exploit California but we are shooting ourselves in the foot. If we improved our schools, increased education funding and toned down the wing nut rhetoric, we would attract more of the right people....the ones who create jobs not just snowbirds and blue collar conservatives looking for a cheaper place to live.

[grmi66]

On the school issue in the Phoenix area look no further than some of the traditional schools and charter schools. My kids attend Basis Charter School and their workload is tougher than mine was at college. The average spend per pupil is heck of a lot less at a charter school than it is at a public school. I tell anyone thinking about moving to the Phoenix area to not even think about public schools, the charter system is the only way to go. My personal experience is that my kids are focused on academics, not distracted by athletics, discipline problems or dumb kids who drag down the rest of the class by wasting the teacher's time. Charter schools have to take anyone who wants to get in, but they don't have to keep them. The bad apples get sent back to public schools.

Arizona needs to tout these alternatives to the public school system to impress people from out of state, Basis Charter Schools are known nationwide for their academic achievements.

[jdahunt]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

I've been saying the above for years on this forum and took abuse for it. What type of people do you want to attract with these socially conservative policies? Do you think M.D.'s, MBA's and PhD's are attracted to pro-gun, poor school funding, anti-gay rights, discrimination against immigrants.......guess again. Have you ever seen the people at a Tea Party rally? You want to attract them?

So you've been saying for years that Arizona will remain a stagnant state not able to grow due to politics all the while the state has been booming as compared to many of the liberal strongholds???

Most states would be happy to have the problems that Arizona has.....all I can say is get out and see what else is going on......there is a reason people are moving to Arizona at a higher rate than most other states....Illinois is seeing a net loss of people...as is California....who is going to be left to pay the bills....nobody which is why taxes are soaring.

[sandy6879]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

We partially agree... Unless of course you are known as the state that spends the 2nd least amount on education. That's Arizona.

There is a subset of students (and growing) that simply won't perform no matter how much you spend on them. Those students that don't care and are coasting. In some districts they are the trouble making students that skew the results. So if you are following, troubled students and special needs consume much more $$'s than motivated students. Social workers, extra counselors, police liaisons won't improve test scores yet cost a massive amount of $$'s. The Fed's like to pass all kinds of laws for special needs and don't fund them. Because we have more troubled students (many who simply don't care to learn) and many more special needs children that might cost $30K per pupil, the cost of K-12 education has gotten out of control.

To hold the line on costs, some ignorant states like AZ are cutting key programs and funds for the motivated students in the motivated districts. To save $'s, they don't pay the teachers well. Hint: better teachers cost more money. Not always (Washington DC and NY comes to mind) but this is generally a universal rule for every job in America. Increasing the ratio or students to teachers doesn't help people learn better nor cutting programs that help the gifted students.

C-D is full of parents trying to find a great school in every state across America. Generally speaking, it's college educated parents who are passionate on performance. Coming from MN which has some of the best public schools in the country, I'd have a real tough time raising our kids here. AZ politicians pride themselves on spending the 2nd least amount in the country. People like yourself who look at what you get for your money have to study motivated family cultures and compare test scores. The results will be skewed if money is the only metric. I am willing to pay for education quality and there are many people like myself.

Back to the point. Arizona is going have a much more difficult time attracting educated parents that place a lot of emphasis on K-12 education. It's a big reason why industry bypasses by Arizona. On average, K-12 isn't funded enough for the family cultures that really cares. Without the employee brainpower, you are going to lose businesses to other states. That's the point and it is a fact. The economists are stating the obvious.

I agree. To quote someone somewhere else on C-D, you get what you pay for. And frankly, if I had a child in the elementary years, there is no way on earth I would send them to school here. We did it for high school, thinking that since mine would be in AP classes it wouldn't be too much of an issue, and I still regret it. AZ is losing talented people, fast. The fact that the majority of the jobs here are service oriented should be a major clue. Educated people as a whole do not want to live here - that in itself, should be cause for concern. Glad to see that there is some common sense alive and well in this state.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by infocyde

Spending per pupil is such a meaningless metric by itself. We could spend a million dollars per pupil and get almost nothing in return for it. And I'd like to see data that shows that Californians who watch the daily show are the ones that necessarily drive an economy. I know many people who left California and live here now for the exact reason that it is different than California. Maybe that "economist" should go try and start a business in California and then one in Arizona to see which one actually has a better business climate.

I wasn't aware that there were states that used per pupil spending as the only metric.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by PhxBarb

If we are so darn inhospitable, how come people are still moving here in droves? And as for the school issue, there are plenty of charter and private schools for all these elite Californians to put their kids in. Who ever said we want all of California to move here anyway? We have half of NY and LI coming here. Isn't that enough?? Maybe the big companies should stay put so we will have less pollution in our valley. We are not a joke in the media. Many other states look to AZ for direction and it makes me proud. JMHO

Half the population of New York would be roughly 10 million, and the population of Arizona is less than 7 million. I think your data may be off just a trifle.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by jdahunt

...

For the past 20 years in Illinois our school funding has exploded...teachers are making near 6 figures and in many cases over 6 figures ...

The average salary for an Illinois teacher in 2011-12 was $66,614.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by sandy6879

I agree. To quote someone somewhere else on C-D, you get what you pay for. And frankly, if I had a child in the elementary years, there is no way on earth I would send them to school here. We did it for high school, thinking that since mine would be in AP classes it wouldn't be too much of an issue, and I still regret it. AZ is losing talented people, fast. The fact that the majority of the jobs here are service oriented should be a major clue. Educated people as a whole do not want to live here - that in itself, should be cause for concern. Glad to see that there is some common sense alive and well in this state.

Couple things: first, the schools are not uniformly bad or good. You can find good schools in most of the more affluent areas without difficulty - even in the district schools. Our HS has graduated kids that went on to the Ivy Leagues, Stanford, MIT etc. This year we had our first Presidential Scholar. We have kids who have maxed the SAT as well. One of our elementaries is a STEM school and the other is an IB candidate. Buckeye HS, yes Buckeye, is an IB World School. So it is possible. Much of the low achievement comes from areas outside of the metro areas and is "structural". No amount of money will change that.

Secondly, yes there is some common sense. A lot of it. You see it when voter initiatives come up. People in this state have supported a sales tax sold as being for education in the depth of the recession, they voted in MLK day - the only state in the US to do that. They extended the states Medicaid to single people and increased benefits to children long before Obamacare came along. They voted to stop partisan redistricting. They rose up almost in unison against the recent anti-gay legislation. It's not hopeless. But unless the legislature turns away from its social conservative track and recognizes the factors that make a state desirable to business go beyond low taxes, we are going to languish and trail other states in that regard.

[stevek64]

Originally Posted by Jukesgrrl

He explained that the Golden State is the biggest market of people who could move here to become economic drivers. He said we need to realize that right now we are not portraying ourselves as a place Californians would be "proud to move to."

Wow, so people who move here from California are the main inviduals that will make/break our state? Really? People from the northwest, mid-west, northeast, etc working or retired, taken as a whole who migrate to AZ, don't have much impact on our state economy,can't be considered intelligent, hard working, affluent "economic drivers" to our state?

Not to mention AZ is right behind TX in terms of gaining population from CA:

California's Population Is Moving Out, Census Report Shows | NBC Southern California

From Census figures:

"So, where are these former Californians going?

The Census Bureau calculates that the most popular destination is Texas (58,992), a state that is luring California companies. That’s followed by Arizona (49,635), Nevada (40,114), Washington (38,421) and Oregon (34,214)."

So all we need is those extra 9k or so Cali's to come to AZ instead of TX and our economy will boom/all the world will be right I guess as we will be on par with TX.

But thanks for the humor I found in this article!

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by stevek64

Wow, so people who move here from California are the main inviduals that will make/break our state? Really? People from the northwest, mid-west, northeast, etc working or retired, taken as a whole who migrate to AZ, don't have much impact on our state economy,can't be considered intelligent, hard working, affluent "economic drivers" to our state?

Not to mention AZ is right behind TX in terms of gaining population from CA:

California's Population Is Moving Out, Census Report Shows | NBC Southern California

From Census figures:

"So, where are these former Californians going?

The Census Bureau calculates that the most popular destination is Texas (58,992), a state that is luring California companies. That’s followed by Arizona (49,635), Nevada (40,114), Washington (38,421) and Oregon (34,214)."

So all we need is those extra 9k or so Cali's to come to AZ instead of TX and our economy will boom/all the world will be right I guess as we will be on par with TX.

But thanks for the humor I found in this article!

The red part states the problem! Companies are skipping right over us.