Solar Panels - Worth the $$$?

[Davidcee]

Originally Posted by Jalhop

You don't say!

Yep, the more electricity one uses the faster the payback. Your predicted savings is many times more than our bill, but then electricity is cheaper here too.

No doubt rates will indeed keep going up in the short term. Hopefully the solar panels will get cheaper, inducing the electric companies in the SW to compete with that and take more advantage of all that sunlight.

FYI The APS rates for on peak consumption is $.21 per kilowatt hour and $.03 per kilowatt hour during off-peak time during the summer. During the winter the on peak cost is $.16 per kilowatt hour and $.03 per kilowatt hour off-peak. These are the rates for the time advantage 7 PM to noon plan. another words from 7 PM to noon during the week your rate is only $.03 per kilowatt hour.

I do not remember the exact amount in western Washington state but it seems to me that the maximum rate was around $.10 per kilowatt hour 24x7

APS is already encouraging people to go green by giving rebates for construction of solar systems including solar water heating

[Davidcee]

Originally Posted by hts

We have a 4400 sq ft house (single level) here in Anthem. I have 3 proposals for solar already, and may solicit a fourth. We need to generate at least 5,500 kw/hrs (at the right time of day of course) in order to generate enough electricity to off-set our peak/on-demand usage that we're currently paying APS around $0.24 kw/hr for. To make a long story short, we're planning on a 7k kw/hr unit that will cost us around $22k out of pocket, but only $12k net after taxes, rebates, etc. We figure we'll save (on average) $200/mth on electric (that's $2,400/yr). We estimate our payback period to be roughly 5 years. And that's if APS doesn't raise rates, which is a stretch. Electric from the grid is only going to get more expensive. Our electric consumption is only going to increase (I expect we'll buy some sort of plug-in car at some point in the future--have you seen the new Prius plug-in?).

We just moved back to Anthem from DC and plan to live in this house for at least 10 years. For us, solar is a no-brainer. We're not green; we're not tree-huggers. We just think that living here in the desert, it makes good fiscal sense.

HTS I wholeheartedly agree with you as to the good fiscal sense. there have been a lot of comments made here is that are based upon "I heard".

However here are some facts
we have been on solar for electrical power since August 17 and below are the figures from our system.
CO2 Saved 18,911 Pounds
Total kWh produced 1,112 kWh
kWh produced so far today 18.91kWh
current output 5.156kw

I will email you with some other interesting things

[hts]

There is no doubt that the cost of solar panels will continue to decline. That being said, if one looks at the financial rebates/incentives (federal, state, and APS), they've also declined such that the net end cost to consumers has NOT decreased (even though panel costs have).

I think we can all agree that electricity rates will rise. As David pointed out, I have proposals from 3 local firms guaranteeing in writing that the amount of electricity generated by my panels will not decrease to less than 83% over 20 years after installation.

I'd just as soon bite the bullet now and get the panels installed and start saving/reducing my consumption from the grid. Please keep in mind that I'm right-sizing my solar panels to only off-set our peak energy consumption. at $0.03 kw, I could care less about off-peak consumption and I can't generate it that cheaply.

I'm not sure why all the hate out there. It's pretty clear to me that a reasonable/conservative payback period is around 5-6 years (if electricity costs remain constant over that period; if APS increases rates, the payback period decreases of course). After that, I'm in the black.

I do think that prices will continue to come down and new technologies will emerge, and therefore we're looking at this initial investment as phase 1. In 5-10 years, I would expect to add additional forms of solar (presumably cheaper and more efficient) that might be financially viable to reduce our off-peak consumption (while still keeping our current panels of course).

[jimj]

Originally Posted by Davidcee

HTS I wholeheartedly agree with you as to the good fiscal sense. there have been a lot of comments made here is that are based upon "I heard".

However here are some facts
we have been on solar for electrical power since August 17 and below are the figures from our system.
CO2 Saved 18,911 Pounds
Total kWh produced 1,112 kWh
kWh produced so far today 18.91kWh
current output 5.156kw

I will email you with some other interesting things

Let me say I'm all for any reasonable alternative to carbon based fuel BUT it has to be available to the public as a whole (price) and not worse for the environment than what it's trying to replace otherwise it's just the same thing as the oil companies are doing now.

How much CO2/hazmat was saved compared to the manufacturing/installation process of the panels? Enough to offset? Nope not yet.
Disposal questions also are a big question. As for new manufacturers need I bring up Solindra or a couple of others that went tango uniform? Now if you want to talk Chinese plants then maybe but pollution from those is still pollution to the planet negating any benefits, and they're heavily subsidized by the government and dumped on this market to boot.


Windmills? Well even good 'ole T.Boone Pickens stopped rah rah'ing that not long after he started. One issue, gotta have enough wind right? Gotta be able to satisfy the enviro groups because they kill birds, gotta please the enviro groups because they make noise and btw, most think their an eyesore (I think they're cool btw) and many cities have ordinances against them for one or all of the above reasons. Boutique? I stand by my assessment.

In the end I also stand by my assertion that solar power at this point is just like hybrid cars, a feel good technology that needs more development and cost reductions before it's cost effective and worth buying unless you just want to be able to say "I'm trying to be green" to your friends over wine and crackers.
One day maybe but it ain't today or tomorrow...

[mortimer]

Originally Posted by Davidcee

Your "statistics" need to be updated to current rates.
Your 1921 kWH now cost $190.52 & the 2268 kWh are now $232.16

Nice try, but my bills were a combination of peak rates and off-peak rates, so your numbers, again are meaningless.
The reason that I put dollars in my post in the first place was to that the relationship to kWh consumption could be
compared to real-world bills. The rates have not changed that much so that my numbers are not relevant any more.

Originally Posted by Davidcee

And averages don't mean much when the cost per kWh
varies seasonally & by total consumption.

This is also irrelevant.

That is why I made a point of showing what my July bill was in comparison. You are getting lost in the minutia.

Originally Posted by Davidcee

OH and solar systems are NOT one size fits all.

I never said it was.

Originally Posted by Davidcee

The 500 kWh home u mentioned must be very
small therefore they would have a small system.

You can dispense with all the 'smackies' because that's not necessarily true.

It could be a moderate house that's very well insulated and/or someone who just doesn't use a lot of electricity.

The fact is that although the cost of panels is proportional, the other things such as meters, converters are pretty much one size fits all.

The point, which you missed, but I'm not going to put a stupid 'smackie' here, is that one is looking at a $10k
to possibly $20k investment to save some money on what is, on average ( whether you like it or not ) less than a
$100/month expense. Even if it does pay for itself, it takes a long time and it absolutely has to work
perfectly over that period and beyond.

My other point, which you also missed, was that you are competing with just making a simple investment with your
$10k or $20k or whatever that might yield a better return. Even if an alternative investment paid the same, just
having an investment in a brokerage acccount keeps paying off - even if you move.

[Juram]

Right now, there's a lot more options as far as solar goes than you had 4 or 5 years ago. One of my neighbors bought a system 2 years ago, the other bought one a few months ago and paid about $3000 less for basically the same size system, even with a reduced solar rebate. In some cases the price has basically gone down by 50% from where it was in 2007/2008.

Like any other, the solar industry seems to be consolidating, I see less solar company trucks out on the roads, but more of the same companies that seem to be thriving so there's a lot less of the two-guys-and-a-truck type operations and more legit, experienced installers out there.