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The Constitution, our nation's owner's manual, uses Biblical references and quotes throughout, and even explicitly acknowledges Jesus at the end: "In the year of our LORD, 1787" [Their emphasis].
Far from suspending their religious beliefs solely out of a narrow fear of taxation by the states to avoid tithing to a state church, their religious beliefs informed their political stances, and are inherent in the foundational documents of our country, and so should be honored.
(On your argument that this was based solely on a fear of taxation (and there were such concerns raised, among others - see John Leland's Objections to the Constitution without a Bill of Rights, in which that concern was raised among others, I would recommend that you refer to Jefferson's text An Act for Establishing Religious Liberty, a foundational document for the later Constitution. (All are available onlne.) In none of the foundational documents does the phrase "separation of church and state" appear. It appeared solely (at that time) in a private letter by Jefferson, which in context referred to the protection of the conscience, and reiterated the language of the 1st Amendment. The only governmental foundational document in which the "Separation of Church and State" was declared was in that of the Constitution of the former U.S.S.R...)
The Declaration of Independence clearly references God, and not simply a deist conception of a God who created the universe but takes no part in human affairs, like a deadbeat dad. Instead, it states that God created us with certain unalienable rights, states that we as a nation should appeal to "the Supreme Judge of the World," and that "divine Providence" is something we as Americans can rely upon. John Adams, our future president and one of the framers of the Declaration, declared that the 4th of July should heneceforth be commemorated with "solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty." His brother Sam Adams, the sparkplug of the revolution, also saw the act of revolution as divinely inspired: "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom alone men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and...from rising to the setting sun, may His kingdom come." John Hancock wrote, "Let us humbly commit our righteous cause to the great Lord of the Universe...Let us joyfully leave our concerns in the hands of Him who raises up and puts down the empires and kingdoms of the earth as He pleases." These views of an interventionist, monotheistic God are hardly Deist conceptions.
The Constitution, our nation's owner's manual, uses Biblical references and quotes throughout, and even explicitly acknowledges Jesus at the end: "In the year of our LORD, 1787" [Their emphasis].
Even the concept of separation of Church and State is itself a Christian notion, which did not exist in pre-Christian cultures. The notion of separation of powers between the executive, legislative, and judicial branches were explicitly based (in the FF's writings) on a Christian concept of man's inherent fallen state, our inherent "political depravity."
In 1787, Benjamin Franklin explicitly called for the kinds of prayer that the Phoenix City Council offered: "I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberation, be held in the Assembly every morning before we proceed to business."
John Adams recognized that the founding principles of America were Christian ones, when he wrote that "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young gentlemen could Unite...And what were these general principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general principles of English and American liberty, in which all these young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence. Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane system."
His son and a later president, John Quincy Adams, went so far as to aver that the 4th of July was second only to Christmas as a worthy day to be celebrated: "Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the World, your most joyous and venerated festival returns on this day [on the Fourth of July]? Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission on earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?"
While the FFs did not intend for there to be a national denominational church (thank God!), they clearly recognized that America was founded on Judaeo-Christian ideals and concepts. From that conception, and the historical fact that the vast majority of the U.S, population is Christian, arose the idea that the U.S. is a "Christian nation" - not in the sense that one must be a Christian to be an American, nor that any one denomination of Christianity (Evangelical or any other) should reign supreme, nor that members of a religion should be prohibited, generally, from practicing their faith.
The Supreme Court of the United States of America recognized those facts in Church of the Holy Trinity v. The United States in 1891, when they declared in a majority decision that "Our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian...This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation...that this is a Christian nation."
In March 27, 1854, the Judiciary Committee of the U.S. Congress declared in its report to the assembled Congress: "Had the people [the Founding Fathers], during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, but not any one sect...In this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants."
Any number of presidents from that time on, from Washington to Andrew Johnson to Theodore Roosevelt to Woodrow Wilson to Harry S. Truman stated explicitly that the U.S. was a Christian nation.
These may be uncomfortable sentiments for those who are atheist or agnostic, but that is the historical record.
Again, I am not a fundamentalist, as I said earlier, so I have no idea what you are trying to argue other than making a strawman argument. Even if I were a fundamentalist, you should avoid the genetic fallacy when trying to make an argument. Clearly Evangelical Christians and Christians of other denominations have more in common than they have in difference,and all believe that they have a personal relationship (a vaguely defined term) with their Savior and Redeemer, to Whom they pray.
I have no idea what you mean by your last sentence, as I am not a fundamentalist, did not declare that the FFs were, and I suspect that, on their written statements, the FFs did agree with me that religious displays, even those with which they did not agree, do deserve a place in the public square - as George Washington stated when he visited a Jewish temple. They would probably disagree that Satanists (if they had even existed at that time,) or atheists who stated that they do not believe in a deity, should be allowed to offer prayers in a place of government. As commonsensical men, they would no doubt question to whom, if they do not believe in a deity, they intended to address their prayers?
1. You may not consider yourself a "fundamentalist", but the vast majority of people would consider you "fundamentalist", if not in religion...in government, but frankly, based on your writings, I think in both.
2. The Founding Fathers were "commonsensical men"? You mean based on things like slavery and wiping out cultures not like their own?
3. In the 2030's, and your still mired in the 1770s.
4. You object to the use of the term "fundies". First, I'd like to know precisely the TOS that violates. Second, I'll bet you disdain political correctness...until it strikes some sensitivity in you.
1. You may not consider yourself a "fundamentalist", but the vast majority of people would consider you "fundamentalist", if not in religion...in government, but frankly, based on your writings, I think in both.
2. The Founding Fathers were "commonsensical men"? You mean based on things like slavery and wiping out cultures not like their own?
3. In the 2030's, and your still mired in the 1770s.
4. You object to the use of the term "fundies". First, I'd like to know precisely the TOS that violates. Second, I'll bet you disdain political correctness...until it strikes some sensitivity in you.
1) If by "Fundamentalist" you mean a Biblical literalist? No. Am I an American who supports my country? Yes.
2) Largely, yes. They set up the framework for the best system of government in the world, IMO. Could they be mistaken? Certainly. Thomas Jefferson, who coined the term "Separation of church and state," also famously tried to push a law through the Virginia House of Burgesses that would require that homosexual men be castrated.
3) I'm not the one who brought up the FF issue. Last time I checked my calendar, it's actually 2016, not 2030.
4) I don't believe in "political correctness," a term that is an artifact of 1960s Cultural Marxism proponents like Marcuse...but I am a proponent of gentlemanly behavior. I obviously object strongly to the beliefs of Satanists and atheists, but I treat the individuals who hold those views with respect and do not call them insulting nicknames. "Fundie" is a pretty sophomoric, obnoxious term. Why use it?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Mike
Could you point out to me where someone said the Founding Fathers were "Fundamentalist - Evangelical"?
The 204 FFs were largely members of Protestant mainline denominations. 88 were Episcopalian/Anglican, 30 were Presbyterian, 27 were Congregationalists, 7 Quakers, 6 Dutch/German Reformed, 5 Lutherans, 3 Roman Catholics, 3 Huguenot, 3 Unitarian, 2 Methodist, and 1 Calvinist.
Did they feel they had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Every Christian feels he or she does share a personal relationship with God as part of their doctrine. That is not solely an Evangelical Protestant belief. With the possible exception of the 3 Unitarians, all would consider themselves in a personal relationship with Jesus, as they prayed to Him. They regularly used invocations of God, Jesus, the Trinity, and so forth in their public and private correspondence. The suggestion that the FFs were "not particularly religious" is frankly, ludicrous.
I am not a fundamentalist, but referring to a religious group by a slang term such as "fundies" is inappropriate, offensive, and probably a violation of this board's TOS, as it would be to refer to Jews or Muslims by slang terms.
Could I point out how the Founding Fathers were Evangelical or Fundamentalists? NO! Because they were not. Did you read my post???
Me? American Fundamentalism came about LATER in history, and until recently, was a religion of the American frontier.
So I agree with you. Mostly. There were NO Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christians who were among the Founding Fathers.
The term "Fundie" is used among Fundamentalists. In fact, that's where I picked it up. It's an abbreviation ,not a term of derisision.
Last edited by sheena12; 02-04-2016 at 09:59 AM..
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