Scottsdale and the light rail (Phoenix, Tempe: credit card, home, neighborhood)

[Prickly Pear]

Originally Posted by cjseliga

That would be amazing, and one of the nicest "gifts" ever, if Phoenix decided to pay for a light rail extension into Scottsdale all the way to Fashion Square, the city would be crazy to turn down such an offer!

The light rail expansions in Phoenix are being funded with federal tax dollars, along with some of the city's sales tax, that can only be used for light rail. If Phoenix had voted for Prop 105, it may have gone to Tempe, Tucson, or some other city outside of Arizona. At least the federal dollars which I believe is at least 50% of the project funding if not an even larger share. The sales tax could not I don't believe be reappropriated for roads, since it was voted based on the improvement and expansion of public transit, excluding roads and freeway work. I'd have to look at it again.

So a light rail from Rural and University give or take, to Fashion Square what a good 6 miles or so, would mostly be funded with federal dollars. You know, with taxes we all already pay for.

Also I cannot recall, didn't Phoenix offer to help with light rail financially into Glendale before that was also nixed? I know that project was entirely funded, but it may have been federal dollars again.

[Burkmere]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Hmm. Maybe the OP was right. This response suggests it is all about classism. In any case, Scottsdale, despite its many fine qualities, is far from being the "center of Arizona." Even if light rail were to come to southern and central portions of Scottsdale, it would never make sense north of FLW Boulevard (or maybe even Shea Boulevard). Don't worry; DC Ranch and Greyhawk are safe from "less-than-attractive clientele."

Whew! Just kidding.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Prickly Pear

The light rail expansions in Phoenix are being funded with federal tax dollars, along with some of the city's sales tax, that can only be used for light rail. If Phoenix had voted for Prop 105, it may have gone to Tempe, Tucson, or some other city outside of Arizona. At least the federal dollars which I believe is at least 50% of the project funding if not an even larger share. The sales tax could not I don't believe be reappropriated for roads, since it was voted based on the improvement and expansion of public transit, excluding roads and freeway work. I'd have to look at it again.

So a light rail from Rural and University give or take, to Fashion Square what a good 6 miles or so, would mostly be funded with federal dollars. You know, with taxes we all already pay for.

Also I cannot recall, didn't Phoenix offer to help with light rail financially into Glendale before that was also nixed? I know that project was entirely funded, but it may have been federal dollars again.

In the case of the South Central extension in Phoenix, the Federal Transit Administration is providing about 40% of the funding. The majority comes from two local sources: Phoenix's transportation tax (Proposition 104) and a Maricopa county transportation tax (Proposition 400). This is pretty typical. Usually the feds want at least half to come from local funds, and they want to see evidence of ongoing local revenue sources to cover operating expenses.

If Scottsdale were ever to proceed with light rail, it would have access to some countywide Proposition 400 funds, but it would almost certainly need to enact its own city-level tax to provide a sufficient share of local funding before qualifying for any federal dollars. Glendale was responsible for the local funds needed for light rail within its borders, and it is extremely unlikely that Phoenix would agree to pay for light rail within Scottsdale city limits.

[JGMotorsport64]

Run it down Thomas after 44th st. Make it loop with the Rural extension. Street car loops around old town.

Solved! Let’s get started

[SK115]

I think light rail could be very good for Scottsdale, but only in the southern portion. The "McDowell Corridor" could benefit from light rail, as that area is in transition. It would help strengthen the connection from Old Town/South Scottsdale/SkySong to Tempe/ASU. I wouldn't run the line an inch north of Old Town. Most of Scottsdale is not dense enough to make light rail a good investment.

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by Prickly Pear

So a light rail from Rural and University give or take, to Fashion Square what a good 6 miles or so, would mostly be funded with federal dollars. You know, with taxes we all already pay for.

Instead of Rural/University, I would branch it off at Washington/Priest and go up Priest/Galvin Parkway to McDowell, so you could have a stop for Phoenix Municipal Stadium, then the Zoo and Botanical Gardens.

After a mile on McDowell then go north on Scottsdale Rd., then maybe even branch it at Drinkwater and Goldwater with a northbound track on Drinkwater and a southbound track on Goldwater, then have it end at Fashion Square.

With that routing it's "only" 3 and half to 4 miles in actual Scottsdale proper. So, let's say $100 million/mile, that would mean Scottsdale's bill would be $350 to 400 million, the feds throw in 40 to 50%, now you're down to $200 to $240 million, then use some of those Maricopa county transportation tax (Proposition 400) funds to knock the price down a wee bit more and the overall price Scottsdale has to pay isn't that ridiculously high!

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by SK115

I think light rail could be very good for Scottsdale, but only in the southern portion. The "McDowell Corridor" could benefit from light rail, as that area is in transition. It would help strengthen the connection from Old Town/South Scottsdale/SkySong to Tempe/ASU. I wouldn't run the line an inch north of Old Town. Most of Scottsdale is not dense enough to make light rail a good investment.

A good point, but also a reason why many Scottsdale residents will continue to oppose investment in any high capacity transit. Scottsdale in an unusually shaped city. It's basically 30 miles tall but only 2 or 3 miles wide in its southern half. It widens in its northern half, but much of that land is desert preserve. The result is that you have differences in priorities from one end of the city to the other. I agree with your argument that the southernmost portion of the city is best suited for light rail; however, that's also a reason why residents north of Camelback may say there's nothing in it for them.

Originally Posted by cjseliga

Instead of Rural/University, I would branch it off at Washington/Priest and go up Priest/Galvin Parkway to McDowell, so you could have a stop for Phoenix Municipal Stadium, then the Zoo and Botanical Gardens.

After a mile on McDowell then go north on Scottsdale Rd., then maybe even branch it at Drinkwater and Goldwater with a northbound track on Drinkwater and a southbound track on Goldwater, then have it end at Fashion Square.

With that routing it's "only" 3 and half to 4 miles in actual Scottsdale proper. So, let's say $100 million/mile, that would mean Scottsdale's bill would be $350 to 400 million, the feds throw in 40 to 50%, now you're down to $200 to $240 million, then use some of those Maricopa county transportation tax (Proposition 400) funds to knock the price down a wee bit more and the overall price Scottsdale has to pay isn't that ridiculously high!

I've heard Papago park suggested as an alternative route. In my ideal world, I'd still prefer the straightforward approach on a north-south line linking Chandler, Tempe, and Scottsdale. Nevertheless, I've heard speculation that the Rural / Scottsdale bridge over Tempe Town Lake would probably have to be replaced to accommodate light rail. The Papago route would avoid that costly engineering challenge.

[locolobo13]

Aren't there already bus routes that link Scottsdale to Phoenix? I ride my bike thru there all the time.

IDK either way.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by locolobo13

Aren't there already bus routes that link Scottsdale to Phoenix? I ride my bike thru there all the time.

IDK either way.

There are, but as noted earlier in this thread, the buses don’t always continue across the Phoenix/Scottsdale border due to lower levels of funding in Scottsdale. Rail resistance is a symptom of a larger problem with public transit and regional cooperation in Scottsdale.

[wase4711]

the majority of people in Scottsdale don't want it, so they shouldn't be forced into paying for it