Scottsdale and the light rail (how much, unemployment, contractors)

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

These people would disagree with you that fares need to be enforced:

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2019/...icing-protest/

I know, and I disagree with them in many respects. Sometimes the far left does as much to undermine public transit as the far right.

[hikernut]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

These people would disagree with you that fares need to be enforced:

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2019/...icing-protest/

A two-hour enforcement inspection of light rail passengers discovered eight individuals with outstanding warrants

[orlando-calrissian]

To be clear, I am not in favor of freeloaders getting free rides. I think the individual in the linked article is taking advantage of people's emotions by claiming trauma while avoiding the fact that she did not have a proper ticket. I believe there are several people who do the same thing, which is more of a reason to find ways to ensure that people riding the train or bus are only those who have paid a fare.

However, it is interesting that people never have a concern about spending millions or even billions on roads/highways and the maintenance necessary on those items but are quick to cry foul when the cost of transit is mentioned. Again, every single developed country besides the US invests heavily in public transit and roads.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by orlando-calrissian

To be clear, I am not in favor of freeloaders getting free rides. I think the individual in the linked article is taking advantage of people's emotions by claiming trauma while avoiding the fact that she did not have a proper ticket. I believe there are several people who do the same thing, which is more of a reason to find ways to ensure that people riding the train or bus are only those who have paid a fare.

The problems stem from the lack of security ... not necessarily guards or law enforcement, but things like turnstyles & gates between the fare machines and the actual train waiting/boarding area at the light rail stations. Those things alone would reduce the number of freeloaders, even though they may not cure the problem 100%.

Originally Posted by orlando-calrissian

However, it is interesting that people never have a concern about spending millions or even billions on roads/highways and the maintenance necessary on those items but are quick to cry foul when the cost of transit is mentioned. Again, every single developed country besides the US invests heavily in public transit and roads.

The U.S. spends a pretty good amount on both public transit and highways, but I see where you're coming from. My contention is with those who complain about the cost of light rail, but have no problem with the enormous cost of things like public education and other entitlements funded by the government. The amount of taxes we pay for light rail is barely a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of taxes we pay to support public schools ... and they don't benefit everybody like many people like to claim. In the big picture, I'd rather have private investment & individual user fees paying for these services (including roads & mass transit).

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

The problems stem from the lack of security ... not necessarily guards or law enforcement, but things like turnstyles & gates between the fare machines and the actual train waiting/boarding area at the light rail stations. Those things alone would reduce the number of freeloaders, even though they may not cure the problem 100%.



The U.S. spends a pretty good amount on both public transit and highways, but I see where you're coming from. My contention is with those who complain about the cost of light rail, but have no problem with the enormous cost of things like public education and other entitlements funded by the government. The amount of taxes we pay for light rail is barely a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of taxes we pay to support public schools ... and they don't benefit everybody like many people like to claim. In the big picture, I'd rather have private investment & individual user fees paying for these services (including roads & mass transit).

User fees would be too regressive, it would take too big of a chunk of the majority of peoples incomes. That why these public goods are funded by taxes to begin with. Someone making less than $20k/year won't be able to afford to commute if they're having to spend $50+/week on tolls for roads, and if they have a kid, I guess that kid won't be getting an education, as the annual tuition for the average private school would be more than that person makes in a year

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

The problems stem from the lack of security ... not necessarily guards or law enforcement, but things like turnstyles & gates between the fare machines and the actual train waiting/boarding area at the light rail stations. Those things alone would reduce the number of freeloaders, even though they may not cure the problem 100%.

They never cure the problem 100%. Even in cities with heavy rail systems that incorporate hard barriers, fare evasion is still an issue. In New York, there has been recent controversy over the installation of new cameras in stations to catch fare evaders. In San Francisco, BART has tried taller fare gates that people can't jump over. The problem is that some people are now complaining those shoulder-height gates are crushing people. There is no perfect system, and some fare evasion is inevitable -- just as some traffic infractions are inevitable on roads and highways.

For the majority of U.S. cities that rely on proof-of-payment rather than turnstiles, the question is always if the significant expense of hardening stations would pay for itself with increased fare revenues. My guess is that it would not. Installing fences, gates, and turnstiles at existing stations would be tremendously expensive, especially if done in a way that complies with emergency exit and ADA requirements, and fare evasion might go down, but it would not vanish entirely.

People sometimes claim they prefer buses because the driver can act as an up-front fare enforcer, but many cities are now moving to all-door boarding in order to make buses run faster. Part of a transition to all-door boarding on buses is also a move to proof-of-payment fare enforcement. The driver focuses on the operation of the vehicle while security personnel periodically board buses to check for tickets and passes.

Long story short: Not everyone likes proof-of-payment systems that rely on random fare inspections, but they're widely used in rail systems and are being adopted by some bus systems. The alternative of hard barriers isn't always much better.

[Brodietrue]

No lightrail in Scottsdale. It will ruin it. Don't need the trash coming in.

[Sno0909]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

These people would disagree with you that fares need to be enforced:

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2019/...icing-protest/

Wow. There is so much I want to say, but free speech isn't so free on this forum.

[orlando-calrissian]

Originally Posted by Sno0909

Wow. There is so much I want to say, but free speech isn't so free on this forum.

Off topic, but free speech only applies in the public forum. It does not apply on privately managed social media sites. You can say what you want but if you break the TOS, it will result in some kind of consequence.

As for the light rail, if the cost is perceived to be too expensive, then BRT should be the goal. We should not be creating barriers to move between cities based on income. Instead of avoiding solving the homeless problem by shifting blame, more effort should be put into figuring why there's such a big homeless problem in the first place. And if it turns out the issue is a good chunk of homeless people are just freeloaders, then figure out what to do with them.

But one of the main things that must happen is people need to stop giving panhandlers money. They are only on the corners because they know they can get money from drivers.

[mags61]

Originally Posted by orlando-calrissian

Off topic, but free speech only applies in the public forum. It does not apply on privately managed social media sites. You can say what you want but if you break the TOS, it will result in some kind of consequence.

As for the light rail, if the cost is perceived to be too expensive, then BRT should be the goal. We should not be creating barriers to move between cities based on income. Instead of avoiding solving the homeless problem by shifting blame, more effort should be put into figuring why there's such a big homeless problem in the first place. And if it turns out the issue is a good chunk of homeless people are just freeloaders, then figure out what to do with them.

But one of the main things that must happen is people need to stop giving panhandlers money. They are only on the corners because they know they can get money from drivers.

Spot on about not throwing money at panhandlers. If they know they can get free money they'll be around.
Same thing applies to illegals------
They know people in this country will hire cheap labor and pay them under the table so that's why they're over here.