Scottsdale and the light rail (big home, private school, inspections)

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

I wouldn't mind a light rail line on east Camelback, but I have doubts about extending it all the way to Scottsdale Fashion Square for a couple of reasons. The Biltmore/Camelback East area you're referring to is a fairly upscale area with midrise office buildings, but it's really not all that dense, urban, or walkable. Not sure if there would be enough demand, especially if it went all the way to Fashion Square.

You also have to consider that Camelback Road winds through a very non urban area east of 44th Street to the Scottsdale city limits (no sidewalks on a fairly lengthy stretch). Residents in north Arcadia or Royal Palm Estates likely wouldn't use light rail, and would probably balk at the idea of it in this area. Light rail should be strictly concentrated to the locations with the highest demand, which in the majority of cases are the denser urban areas. Some of the plans to put additional lines in the suburban areas seriously need to be reconsidered.

I disagree with the first paragraph but agree entirely with the second. The Biltmore area is becoming more dense with new apartment developments and would be good destination for a spur. At 44th Street itself, there are new developments underway for the Suns practice facility and the Sam Fox development. East of 44th Street, though, everything changes. Camelback from 44th Street to Jokake has a semi-rural feel with little prospect for new development and increase density. The neighborhood opposition along that corridor would be formidable even before reaching the Scottsdale border. If light rail ever comes to Scottsdale, it will likely be a north south route along Rural/Scottsdale Road or via Papago Park.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I disagree with the first paragraph but agree entirely with the second. The Biltmore area is becoming more dense with new apartment developments and would be good destination for a spur. At 44th Street itself, there are new developments underway for the Suns practice facility and the Sam Fox development. East of 44th Street, though, everything changes. Camelback from 44th Street to Jokake has a semi-rural feel with little prospect for new development and increase density. The neighborhood opposition along that corridor would be formidable even before reaching the Scottsdale border. If light rail ever comes to Scottsdale, it will likely be a north south route along Rural/Scottsdale Road or via Papago Park.

You're right about the Camelback Corridor from Central to 44th Street. I live in this area, and have seen many changes over the years, especially with more upward development and increased density. I wouldn't mind a light rail extension along Camelback from Central to perhaps 44th Street, but I'm not too sure if it would get as much ridership as the main line. The demand doesn't seem to be as high, and I'm basing this on people in my neighborhood alone ... everybody I know has their own cars and likely wouldn't use it very much, if at all. I only use it when I go downtown.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

You're right about the Camelback Corridor from Central to 44th Street. I live in this area, and have seen many changes over the years, especially with more upward development and increased density. I wouldn't mind a light rail extension along Camelback from Central to perhaps 44th Street, but I'm not too sure if it would get as much ridership as the main line. The demand doesn't seem to be as high, and I'm basing this on people in my neighborhood alone ... everybody I know has their own cars and likely wouldn't use it very much, if at all. I only use it when I go downtown.

That's why it is a bad idea. People in affluent areas have cars and don't want to ride in a glorified bus with a bunch of winos and drug addicts. All light rail would do is to open the area to people who have no good reason to be there.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

That's why it is a bad idea. People in affluent areas have cars and don't want to ride in a glorified bus with a bunch of winos and drug addicts. All light rail would do is to open the area to people who have no good reason to be there.

People who call light rail a glorified bus generally have little experience with riding either. Buses can't carry nearly as many as people as rail, they get stuck in traffic rather than traveling in their own right of way, and are much less comfortable to ride. Likewise, the hackneyed "winos and drug addicts" stereotype is generally used only by those who have minimal experience riding the train. The final sentence about "no good reason to be there" reinforces the classism in this thread, much of it from those who don't live in Scottsdale, Biltmore, or Arcadia but somehow believe it's their duty to defend those areas from people they perceive as not belonging there. Of course that drawbridge mentality ignores the large population of service workers who commute to those places from elsewhere in the metro area. Thankfully, Phoenix voters reinforced their support of light rail for the fourth time just a few months ago. Phoenix, along with Tempe and Mesa, can continue with strategic expansion of light rail, although it would certainly be better if Scottsdale joined its neighbors.

[doolish1]

Service industry workers have a good reason to be there.... they are working.... which is what most affluent people complain about.... the poor people don't want to work!!!! Maybe they do... but need a ride.... like a light rail to the mall, hotels and restaurants. Obviously, the jobs are near where the MONEY is located...... so the poor need to get to the areas where there is money to earn some of it.....

An easy way to get in and out of an area can prevent those scary poor people from a need to find a way to MOVE INTO Scottsdale and RUIN it......

Just a thought.

I grew up in NY and the trains are great. I would love a train from Scottsdale to downtown and the airport. This would save me from parking issues and using a car to games and flights. Reducing traffic saves money on road construction costs and of course the air we breathe.... in an area where air quality is an issue.....

It seems to make sense to me and it would receive ridership from all sorts of humans.... not just the poor ones.

[orlando-calrissian]

I would vote to approve light rail in Scottsdale. I would rather deal with homeless than risk my life every morning and evening with the crazy idiots that drive in the Valley.

There's an easy solution to preventing "riff raff" from getting to Scottsdale:

A. Retrofit stations to only allow those with tickets to enter the train, similar to what is done in other cities (Seattle, Atlanta, NYC, etc.)
B. Properly police trains and have officers check for tickets more frequently

I will always vote to approve spending funds to allow better movement for service workers and the less fortunate to have more mobility than spending more and more money on expanding and maintaining roads, which seems largely wasteful. If it's too expensive, then lets look at BRT along Camelback and Scottsdale Roads. The 101 was expanded just 2 years ago and it is already clogged again. Their needs to be another option in the Valley than just driving everywhere.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by orlando-calrissian

I would vote to approve light rail in Scottsdale. I would rather deal with homeless than risk my life every morning and evening with the crazy idiots that drive in the Valley.

There's an easy solution to preventing "riff raff" from getting to Scottsdale:

A. Retrofit stations to only allow those with tickets to enter the train, similar to what is done in other cities (Seattle, Atlanta, NYC, etc.)
B. Properly police trains and have officers check for tickets more frequently

I will always vote to approve spending funds to allow better movement for service workers and the less fortunate to have more mobility than spending more and more money on expanding and maintaining roads, which seems largely wasteful. If it's too expensive, then lets look at BRT along Camelback and Scottsdale Roads. The 101 was expanded just 2 years ago and it is already clogged again. Their needs to be another option in the Valley than just driving everywhere.

I generally agree with you. One detail needs to be clarified, though: The majority of U.S. cities with rail transit rely on proof-of-payment systems that rely on random inspections rather than hard barriers. That includes Seattle. When I've been on light rail there, I've sometimes seen security personnel come through the train to perform fare inspections, but there are no turnstiles (unless you're thinking of the Seattle Center Monorail, which is a separate, private operation). Atlanta and New York are part of the minority of cities with heavy rail systems. Those generally have more developed station infrastructure, including turnstiles or gates of some sort. That's not to say that proof-of-payment systems like what we have in Phoenix are necessarily better or worse than the alternatives -- just that they're quite common. I am pleased to have seen a substantial increase in fare enforcement on Valley Metro trains over the past two years.

[KurtAZ]

These people would disagree with you that fares need to be enforced:

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2019/...icing-protest/

[wase4711]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

These people would disagree with you that fares need to be enforced:

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2019/...icing-protest/

sure, everything needs to be free to those who can't afford it...cars, housing, food, clothes, restaurants, cell phones, computers, all of it free for everyone, and, if you re caught stealing anything the police can't arrest you because you couldn't afford to buy it yourself.
geez...

[orlando-calrissian]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

These people would disagree with you that fares need to be enforced:

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2019/...icing-protest/

Sounds like the police were overbearing in this case. There's no need for an arrest unless they are a multiple offender. The offending party simply needs to be escorted off the train.

Not having the light rail isn't stopping homeless from getting to Scottsdale, I've already seen them out and about. I have seen a more concerted effort from Scottsdale PD to remove homeless from certain areas than I've seen anywhere else around the valley.