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Every single example of "jobs" you gave were Mcjobs.
Mcjobs don't pay much. They don't count as good paying jobs. As the thread clearly shows - even paying the rent on a crappy apartment for a single person is impossible when working Mcjobs.
Sales jobs don't tend to pay much - 100% commission people wash out frequently. If one is good at sales, they make money. But those who wash out wind up getting Mcjobs.
Aside from those two exceptions to the catch-22, the good paying jobs require experience - which one can't get until they got the good paying job first.
OK, you expect someone to get a Mcjob. Then get paid squat and have grave difficulty paying the rent.
Apparently those are the only choices out there. Zero opportunity to get a good paying job.
You're saying one shouldn't get a better paying job because those are the only employers begging people to take their jobs?
I think that is mandatory to get a good paying job just to pay the rent - the problem is the catch-22 stands in the way. The catch-22 is: No experience, no job; no job, no experience. Employers do not count Mcjob or unrelated work experience as experience for good-paying jobs.
Inquiring minds want to know. Since you are constantly talking about "McJobs", "Catch-22", and "Sales jobs" (in thread after thread), why do you have so much passion for this topic? Are you describing your own situation? Are you in HR? I'm curious.
My point has always been how doable it is for MOST people to make a lot more than they are now. Yea, they might need to toss out their current degree / job. Of course, people may "wash out" because they are not motivated or unable to have the basic discipline to follow up with people, be nice, or have decent communication skills etc.
But I'm here to tell you, I could make a couple of hundred grand a year fast and get it by way of a completely different path. No, not everybody. But if money is the motivation (housing, food, security) it's really not hard. I'd say well over 75% of the people can. But they lack the courage to do it. No, not a "get rich scheme". Just doing what a lot of other people do but only better.
I bet if I sat someone down and explained what and how to do, too many people would either be shaking in their boots or too stubborn to try. So as I say, people are where they are for a reason.
I will also say, I see all kinds of people leveraged (truck payments, overextended on CC bills, etc) that also are where they are for a reason. In the end, some people get it while others don't. It's a major difference between where people end up in society.
As I have typed before, I raised our kids to not give excuses for their problems. Rather, let's talk about the solutions. Attitude and how you spend your time thinking about your situation is a big differentiation with people who end up on top. And if I am being honest, it seems as though your focus is giving reasons why it's (nearly) always someone's fault. I'm the direct opposite in how I address my shortcomings. I admit it and change course. Give it a try!
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 05-07-2022 at 03:51 PM..
Inquiring minds want to know. Since you are constantly talking about "McJobs", "Catch-22", and "Sales jobs" (in thread after thread), why do you have so much passion for this topic? Are you describing your own situation? Are you in HR? I'm curious.
My point has always been how doable it is for MOST people to make a lot more than they are now. Yea, they might need to toss out their current degree / job. Of course, people may "wash out" because they are not motivated or unable to have the basic discipline to follow up with people, be nice, or have decent communication skills etc.
But I'm here to tell you, I could make a couple of hundred grand a year fast and get it by way of a completely different path. No, not everybody. But if money is the motivation (housing, food, security) it's really not hard. I'd say well over 75% of the people can. But they lack the courage to do it. No, not a "get rich scheme". Just doing what a lot of other people do but only better.
I bet if I sat someone down and explained what and how to do, too many people would either be shaking in their boots or too stubborn to try. So as I say, people are where they are for a reason.
I will also say, I see all kinds of people leveraged (truck payments, overextended on CC bills, etc) that also are where they are for a reason. In the end, some people get it while others don't. It's a major difference between where people end up in society.
As I have typed before, I raised our kids to not give excuses for their problems. Rather, let's talk about the solutions. Attitude and how you spend your time thinking about your situation is a big differentiation with people who end up on top. And if I am being honest, it seems as though your focus is giving reasons why it's (nearly) always someone's fault. I'm the direct opposite in how I address my shortcomings. I admit it and change course. Give it a try!
When there are apps (Truebill is the one I hear ads for most often) to "help" people manage their subscriptions then the situation is hopeless.
But I am always impressed with your enthusiasm and effort to educate.
When there are apps (Truebill is the one I hear ads for most often) to "help" people manage their subscriptions then the situation is hopeless.
But I am always impressed with your enthusiasm and effort to educate.
I never heard of "Truebill". I looked them up. They offer "bill negotiating, cancel subscriptions, and help you send your bills in on time", etc. Wow. And 2M people paid THEM money in order to stop spending money on crap they don't need? Oh, the irony! https://www.truebill.com/about
Inquiring minds want to know. Since you are constantly talking about "McJobs", "Catch-22", and "Sales jobs" (in thread after thread), why do you have so much passion for this topic? Are you describing your own situation? Are you in HR? I'm curious.
My point has always been how doable it is for MOST people to make a lot more than they are now. Yea, they might need to toss out their current degree / job. Of course, people may "wash out" because they are not motivated or unable to have the basic discipline to follow up with people, be nice, or have decent communication skills etc.
But I'm here to tell you, I could make a couple of hundred grand a year fast and get it by way of a completely different path. No, not everybody. But if money is the motivation (housing, food, security) it's really not hard. I'd say well over 75% of the people can. But they lack the courage to do it. No, not a "get rich scheme". Just doing what a lot of other people do but only better.
I bet if I sat someone down and explained what and how to do, too many people would either be shaking in their boots or too stubborn to try. So as I say, people are where they are for a reason.
I will also say, I see all kinds of people leveraged (truck payments, overextended on CC bills, etc) that also are where they are for a reason. In the end, some people get it while others don't. It's a major difference between where people end up in society.
As I have typed before, I raised our kids to not give excuses for their problems. Rather, let's talk about the solutions. Attitude and how you spend your time thinking about your situation is a big differentiation with people who end up on top. And if I am being honest, it seems as though your focus is giving reasons why it's (nearly) always someone's fault. I'm the direct opposite in how I address my shortcomings. I admit it and change course. Give it a try!
I can understand being nervous taking on a new career or moving to a different state. But what I can't understand is stubbornness. When someone says they bought a condo instead of asking questions about loan qualifications their success is dismissed. The same with opportunities in sales. The idea is shot down before it's given a chance.
This has nothing to do with catch 22 or any such nonsense. And everything to do with one's attitude and outlook on life.
Every single example of "jobs" you gave were Mcjobs.
Mcjobs don't pay much. They don't count as good paying jobs. As the thread clearly shows - even paying the rent on a crappy apartment for a single person is impossible when working Mcjobs.
Nearly everybody who starts out in the workforce has a "McJob". After I graduated high school in the early '80s, I worked menial jobs. I also walked & rode the city buses everywhere because I couldn't afford a car (not only the cost of buying a car, but the upkeep, gas, and especially the insurance). Many parents buy vehicles for their spoiled brats as soon as they get their DL, but not mine. That was my "catch 22": I didn't have a car, so I had to catch the #22 bus. This was during a time when the transit system in Phoenix was far worse than what it is now. It sucked, but I survived.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell
the good paying jobs require experience - which one can't get until they got the good paying job first.
This is true, but I got my first full time job as an office assistant at a small company on 12th Street & Devonshire. They hired me with no experience, but I obtained on the job learning, and moved on from there. As one of the entry level workers nearly 35 years ago, and as a manager/recruiter at my own company, a lot of firms will often hire people with little or no work experience as entry level trainees. Here's your "catch 22": they have to be able to pass a job interview, demonstrate a work ethic, and be generally educated. If they perform above the required standards, think outside the box, come up with solutions instead of complaints, and network, they will stand a much better chance of climbing the ladder and obtaining the better paying positions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell
OK, you expect someone to get a Mcjob. Then get paid squat and have grave difficulty paying the rent. Apparently those are the only choices out there. Zero opportunity to get a good paying job.
First of all, a lot of "McJobs" are paying above minimum wage, and in Arizona that's saying a lot because our minimum wage is one of the higher ones in the nation. Second, there's plenty of opportunity to get a better paying job. See my above paragraph for some advice ... take it or leave it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsell
You're saying one shouldn't get a better paying job because those are the only employers begging people to take their jobs?
You have to start somewhere. If somebody has no skills or experience, and is unable to get a cushy office job which pays a higher wage, then Papa John's, Circle K, and Safeway are a few of the places to work and GET some experience. Customers are fed up with empty shelves, closed counters, and waiting in long lines due to the lack of staffing. If one of these jobs isn't enough to live on, find another side job. Lots of places are willing to hire and train.
Nearly everybody who starts out in the workforce has a "McJob".
Employers do not count Mcjob experience toward higher paying career jobs. They clearly did back in 1987.
Quote:
This is true, but I got my first full time job as an office assistant at a small company on 12th Street & Devonshire. They hired me with no experience, but I obtained on the job learning, and moved on from there.
Those jobs don't exist anymore. You got lucky and found someone willing to give you a chance.
Quote:
As one of the entry level workers nearly 35 years ago,
The job market has changed drastically since 1987.
Quote:
and as a manager/recruiter at my own company, a lot of firms will often hire people with little or no work experience as entry level trainees.
Name and location of this miraculous company that does not enforce a catch-22, please.
Quote:
Here's your "catch 22": they have to be able to pass a job interview,
No experience means no interview in the rest of the career job companies.
Quote:
demonstrate a work ethic, and be generally educated.
Not in the rest of the career job companies.
Quote:
Second, there's plenty of opportunity to get a better paying job.
Apparently only at your company. No others.
Quote:
You have to start somewhere.
I agree.
But the catch-22 means the lowest rung on the ladder is unreachable.
Quote:
If somebody has no skills or experience,
No skills or experience = Mcjob.
Skills DO exist outside of work experience - but employers do not see skills until one is paid for it.
Skills but no experience = no career job for you, Mcjob or sales job time.
Quote:
and is unable to get a cushy office job which pays a higher wage,
Those "cushy office jobs" require experience in the role they are trying to get.
Quote:
then Papa John's, Circle K, and Safeway are a few of the places to work and GET some experience.
Employers do not count Mcjob experience. You need to update your 1987 view of the job market.
Quote:
If one of these jobs isn't enough to live on, find another side job.
Like what? Another Mcjob? We have people working multiple Mcjobs doing that.
Someone trying to get off the Mcjob merry-go-round by learning new skills winds up thus "why is this Starbucks barista trying to get a job as a business analyst" says the hiring manager, throwing the resume and cover letter in the garbage, which outlines the education and skills as a business analyst obtained from that education.
Quote:
Lots of places are willing to hire and train.
Sales and Mcjobs do. All the others expect you to have already worked in the role you're trying to get for the first time somehow.
Employers do not count Mcjob experience toward higher paying career jobs. They clearly did back in 1987.
Those jobs don't exist anymore. You got lucky and found someone willing to give you a chance.
The job market has changed drastically since 1987.
Name and location of this miraculous company that does not enforce a catch-22, please.
No experience means no interview in the rest of the career job companies.
Not in the rest of the career job companies.
Apparently only at your company. No others.
I agree.
But the catch-22 means the lowest rung on the ladder is unreachable.
No skills or experience = Mcjob.
Skills DO exist outside of work experience - but employers do not see skills until one is paid for it.
Skills but no experience = no career job for you, Mcjob or sales job time.
Those "cushy office jobs" require experience in the role they are trying to get.
Employers do not count Mcjob experience. You need to update your 1987 view of the job market.
Like what? Another Mcjob? We have people working multiple Mcjobs doing that.
Someone trying to get off the Mcjob merry-go-round by learning new skills winds up thus "why is this Starbucks barista trying to get a job as a business analyst" says the hiring manager, throwing the resume and cover letter in the garbage, which outlines the education and skills as a business analyst obtained from that education.
Sales and Mcjobs do. All the others expect you to have already worked in the role you're trying to get for the first time somehow.
If someone has the education but no actual work experience they might need to think outside the box. Yes, most inquires will be tossed but it's a numbers game. What you're trying to do is get your foot in the door. You might not land the job you want and you might have to relocate. However, if it gets you out of Starbucks and into a company with potential. You're headed in the right direction.
But you'll need to do the footwork. This is very important. Many if not most people are unwilling to do this. I never landed a teaching job for example by answering a job listing. Such openings were swamped with applicants usually much more qualified than I. So... in the greater Kanto (Tokyo) area there some 250 colleges. I created two lists. Those school within 2 hours of those two my apartment and those outside that range. The hiring season and job listings for next April (start date of the new academic year) usually begins in Oct/Nov.
However, I would send out my resume before the summer break. Sometimes a school needed teacher and I was in the right place at the right time but mostly I got rejection notices. I would then send out my resume a second time in Feb. Perhaps a school suddenly had an opening. I would snail mail my resume and stamp Att: English Dept. in red to ensure it reached the correct department.
Around 2003 the rejection notices were usually sent by e-mail. I would thank the person for getting back to me and keep their contact info on file. Periodically I would contact the person again explaining we'd been in touch before and perhaps there was a change. (I landed one great job this way.)
I was working p/t at various schools. The average ESL university teacher worked 14-16 classes a week. I needed 25-27 because I had started buying property in the States. I was constantly looking for more classes, schools closer to my apartment or schools which paid better. I was willing to work 6 days a week including night course. Leaving home at 7 am and returning at 9 pm wasn't unusual. I also worked to upgrade my qualifications. I got an MA degree and published the required three papers (ok. they weren't published in an academic journal but if a department accepted them that's all I needed.)
Again I thought outside the box and was willing to do what it took to succeed. Failure wasn't option. If I defaulted on my loans and lost my properties I would have nothing. I will receive roughly $400 a month in social security (age 70) and have no overseas pension.
"I've got mine" today because I earned it. And while I think it's wrong to enter this country illegally I have more respect for a person who crosses the border with nothing and works their ass to get ahead than Americans who constantly ***** and moan.
Employers do not count Mcjob experience toward higher paying career jobs. They clearly did back in 1987.
Those jobs don't exist anymore. You got lucky and found someone willing to give you a chance.
The job market has changed drastically since 1987.
Name and location of this miraculous company that does not enforce a catch-22, please.
No experience means no interview in the rest of the career job companies.
Not in the rest of the career job companies.
Apparently only at your company. No others.
I agree.
But the catch-22 means the lowest rung on the ladder is unreachable.
No skills or experience = Mcjob.
Skills DO exist outside of work experience - but employers do not see skills until one is paid for it.
Skills but no experience = no career job for you, Mcjob or sales job time.
Those "cushy office jobs" require experience in the role they are trying to get.
Employers do not count Mcjob experience. You need to update your 1987 view of the job market.
Like what? Another Mcjob? We have people working multiple Mcjobs doing that.
Someone trying to get off the Mcjob merry-go-round by learning new skills winds up thus "why is this Starbucks barista trying to get a job as a business analyst" says the hiring manager, throwing the resume and cover letter in the garbage, which outlines the education and skills as a business analyst obtained from that education.
Sales and Mcjobs do. All the others expect you to have already worked in the role you're trying to get for the first time somehow.
It was like this in 1987, same catch-22. I used to read the employment ads paying minimum wage or a little more and requiring 2 years of experience! HA! there you have it. Catch -22. I stopped going to those job interviews just to be told you have no experience in what they needed. Total waste of time.
I left the city I was in and went to a city that is affordable, responded to ads that said " we will train " ,
Jobs like ' Utility locator, construction labor, Traffic control barricade set up, Warehouse shipping receiving, really hard jobs with some overtime. there was not much energy left for SIDE JOBS. I tried it working two jobs and getting 4 hours of sleep ( night janitor for offices ). slept all day on Sunday.
Slept on an ex-wife's coach for three months to save for a tiny crappy apt, Lived on the Taco bell party pack and rice and beans. I was mad and pissed off, and I used my anger to fuel my determination. I gave every job 110 % in spite of my lowly situation. I found something positive
I am an Idealist, Luck only changes if you believe it will. If you look for it. I read these stupid articles that say get a side hustle they say! these are written for the new economy for people with exceptional skills not for me. I Try not to invest in negative confirmation bias, ( If I believe I won't succeed then I won't).
Life will kick some people in the ass. I have spent the last 4 years helping a friend with a very unusual medical, and biological problem. I have spent over $ 100,000 dollars on this problem. Right when I finally had financial security this happened. Not everybody says " I got mine too bad for you ". There are a few rare people who will give you a break and are not easy to find.
If I end up renting a bedroom in someone's house oh well, I gave it my best. I stayed positive.
Another nifty outside of the box trick: to save money my vacations were always spent in the State (stayed with mother who lived in Cal.) One year I contacted all the universities in Cal asking if they wanted me to stop by and talk about teaching English in Japan. A department at the University of California, Berkeley said yes and I spent a hour talking on the subject/answering questions.
Bingo! My resume now had: Guest lecturer - University of California, Berkeley.
Another nifty outside of the box trick: to save money my vacations were always spent in the State (stayed with mother who lived in Cal.) One year I contacted all the universities in Cal asking if they wanted me to stop by and talk about teaching English in Japan. A department at the University of California, Berkeley said yes and I spent a hour talking on the subject/answering questions.
Bingo! My resume now had: Guest lecturer - University of California, Berkeley.
awesome positive attitude!
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Oh, the irony! 
It is still the way it was
