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Assuming the OP is asking genuine questions and is not just a troll ... being a recent transplant from the Bay Area I can certainly 'understand' where many of the OP's sentiments come from, but I have to say I am quite enjoying Phoenix. I'm also from Europe and lived in London and love Paris, Seville, Florence, etc. I moved here after school, and lived in SF for 12 years and then moved out to the East Bay and absolutely love it there. But my current work is here so here I am ...
Actually, I dislike 'Phoenix' as a city 'core', because it has very little life, and is a sprawling mess - you are right that there are few places to get out of the car and walk, and there is not much to visually enjoy in the center. This is no different from San Jose, CA, Concord, CA, LA, Dallas, Houston, and a huge number of other 'generic' US cities. So for me, I don't look for that, but instead I enjoy it's strengths. I would point out that Market St. in SF is a hell-hole, and most of the south of market area has been badly developed. And the homeless problem in SF is totally out of control ...
I'm enjoying the weather; it was spectacular in March/April/May, not bad in June, and only now in July is it starting to be depressing - but - there are some fabulous nightly storms that are quite spectacular to watch. And I positively LOVE sitting outside at 9pm eating dinner in 90 degree heat! I can drive up to Sedona or Payson or Flagstaff to cool down. SF in the summer is the absolute pits, weather wise - 50 degree fog howling through the streets. Only in Sept/Oct does it get nice. Winters are pretty good too.
I'm loving Scottsdale (where I'm staying). You call it a 'disneyfied town'. I think it is well laid out, pretty, and easy to enjoy. To me, 'disneyfied' suggests a German castle next to a Chinese pagoda (ie, gaudy, incongruous juxtaposition); Scottsdale has a very consistent 'southwestern' feel and I applaud them for maintaining it. The downtown of Scottsdale is not that bad - your reference to diagonal parking/etc is non-sensical - EVERY street in SF has street parking with cars 'blocking the view' ... (with no affordable off-street parking anywhere). The medians in Scottsdale are interestingly landscaped, and development is obviously tightly controlled to avoid blight. Driving along Hayden, McCormick Ranch, Via de Ventura, etc is pretty darned attractive. Every day in SF I drive up 101 and onto 80 and the bay bridge, and marvel at the ugliness of the 'south of market' development that has occured ... not to mention billboards (haven't seen a billboard yet in Scottsdale ...). And the freeways here are incredibly well 'decorated' - can't imagine how they justified that cost, but I'm glad they did it!
For the first month I was frustrated at not finding good restaurants and kept looking for the 'center', but I slowly got to understand the lay of the land - the good places are tucked into (very attractive) 'commercial centers' typically at major intersections - a great example is the Pita Jungle restaurant at Shea/Scottsdale - took me weeks to discover that place but now I go there all the time; there's outdoor seating, a local (non-Starbucks) coffee shop, ice-cream place, etc. Across the street is 'Oreganos' Pizza - another non-chain place that has atmosphere. There are dozens of these little 'centers' all over, but they are visually well-integrated so you just have to look further/harder.
As another poster mentioned, the East Bay is not that much different from Phoenix, and I absolutely love Walnut Creek/Lafayette/Danville, and that is not that different from Scottsdale/Paradise Valley.
The people are delightful here; whatever made me like CA when I first went there - laid back, easy going, friendly - applies equally here. I'm a die-hard liberal, but I have not heard anyone be overtly 'Republican' - that is, no one bugs me about anything (unlike in the South, where you get religion rammed down your throat).
The only thing I miss, truly, is good Asian food, and the sight of Asians ... I'm so used to being surrounded by Asians (my g/f is Asian too), and eating fabulous/cheap Asian food, it's a struggle here. But I go home every month and 'indulge' ...
Assuming the OP is asking genuine questions and is not just a troll ... being a recent transplant from the Bay Area I can certainly 'understand' where many of the OP's sentiments come from, but I have to say I am quite enjoying Phoenix. I'm also from Europe and lived in London and love Paris, Seville, Florence, etc. I moved here after school, and lived in SF for 12 years and then moved out to the East Bay and absolutely love it there. But my current work is here so here I am ...
Actually, I dislike 'Phoenix' as a city 'core', because it has very little life, and is a sprawling mess - you are right that there are few places to get out of the car and walk, and there is not much to visually enjoy in the center. This is no different from San Jose, CA, Concord, CA, LA, Dallas, Houston, and a huge number of other 'generic' US cities. So for me, I don't look for that, but instead I enjoy it's strengths. I would point out that Market St. in SF is a hell-hole, and most of the south of market area has been badly developed. And the homeless problem in SF is totally out of control ...
I'm enjoying the weather; it was spectacular in March/April/May, not bad in June, and only now in July is it starting to be depressing - but - there are some fabulous nightly storms that are quite spectacular to watch. And I positively LOVE sitting outside at 9pm eating dinner in 90 degree heat! I can drive up to Sedona or Payson or Flagstaff to cool down. SF in the summer is the absolute pits, weather wise - 50 degree fog howling through the streets. Only in Sept/Oct does it get nice. Winters are pretty good too.
I'm loving Scottsdale (where I'm staying). You call it a 'disneyfied town'. I think it is well laid out, pretty, and easy to enjoy. To me, 'disneyfied' suggests a German castle next to a Chinese pagoda (ie, gaudy, incongruous juxtaposition); Scottsdale has a very consistent 'southwestern' feel and I applaud them for maintaining it. The downtown of Scottsdale is not that bad - your reference to diagonal parking/etc is non-sensical - EVERY street in SF has street parking with cars 'blocking the view' ... (with no affordable off-street parking anywhere). The medians in Scottsdale are interestingly landscaped, and development is obviously tightly controlled to avoid blight. Driving along Hayden, McCormick Ranch, Via de Ventura, etc is pretty darned attractive. Every day in SF I drive up 101 and onto 80 and the bay bridge, and marvel at the ugliness of the 'south of market' development that has occured ... not to mention billboards (haven't seen a billboard yet in Scottsdale ...). And the freeways here are incredibly well 'decorated' - can't imagine how they justified that cost, but I'm glad they did it!
For the first month I was frustrated at not finding good restaurants and kept looking for the 'center', but I slowly got to understand the lay of the land - the good places are tucked into (very attractive) 'commercial centers' typically at major intersections - a great example is the Pita Jungle restaurant at Shea/Scottsdale - took me weeks to discover that place but now I go there all the time; there's outdoor seating, a local (non-Starbucks) coffee shop, ice-cream place, etc. Across the street is 'Oreganos' Pizza - another non-chain place that has atmosphere. There are dozens of these little 'centers' all over, but they are visually well-integrated so you just have to look further/harder.
As another poster mentioned, the East Bay is not that much different from Phoenix, and I absolutely love Walnut Creek/Lafayette/Danville, and that is not that different from Scottsdale/Paradise Valley.
The people are delightful here; whatever made me like CA when I first went there - laid back, easy going, friendly - applies equally here. I'm a die-hard liberal, but I have not heard anyone be overtly 'Republican' - that is, no one bugs me about anything (unlike in the South, where you get religion rammed down your throat).
The only thing I miss, truly, is good Asian food, and the sight of Asians ... I'm so used to being surrounded by Asians (my g/f is Asian too), and eating fabulous/cheap Asian food, it's a struggle here. But I go home every month and 'indulge' ...
I don't think we'll ever have as much or as good Asian food as SF, but any particular ethnic cuisine you prefer? There are pocket neighborhoods with Vietnamese and Khmer food around town.
The only thing I miss, truly, is good Asian food, and the sight of Asians ... I'm so used to being surrounded by Asians (my g/f is Asian too), and eating fabulous/cheap Asian food, it's a struggle here. But I go home every month and 'indulge' ...
Did you check out the Chinese Cultural Center? (668 N 44th St, Phoenix, AZ )
I personally thought that little area was awesome. They had an Asian market in that complex, as well as a buffet a couple doors down. (And when I was there, a sweet display of the yinyang)
Check it out on Google Maps or take a drive there, you'll see its a cool building complex!
I don't think we'll ever have as much or as good Asian food as SF, but any particular ethnic cuisine you prefer? There are pocket neighborhoods with Vietnamese and Khmer food around town.
After a long love-affair with Thai, I'm currently more in favor of Vietnamese (mainly Pho) and VERY hot Sichuan. I've heard PF Chang has good food but I can't get used to the decor - it's incongruous to me! I've found a few decent Pho places already so I think I have the Vietnamese covered. So far, the Chinese food has been abysmal. Tonight, I tried "Flo's" which came highly recommended but ... everything seemed sweet to me. I would die to find a good dim sum place! Actually, I'd just like to go to a place where the waiters are Chinese and some of the customers too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic
Did you check out the Chinese Cultural Center? (668 N 44th St, Phoenix, AZ )
I personally thought that little area was awesome. They had an Asian market in that complex, as well as a buffet a couple doors down. (And when I was there, a sweet display of the yinyang)
Check it out on Google Maps or take a drive there, you'll see its a cool building complex!
I've read about it and do plan to go. Ranch 99 is the market you refer to, I believe, and if it's like the ones back home they are great.
Pretty soon in a couple of yrs Arizona will have a beach front
Quote:
Originally Posted by destroycreate
I'm a Euroamerican, having lived both in European cities and American cities my whole life. Currently, I reside in San Francisco, where quite frankly I think it is one of the nicest cities in America. I happen to have a high standard for cities. Yes, I am as anti-NIMBY pro-urban growth anti-sprawl as it gets. I want to see mom and pop stores, not just endless chains and malls and monolithic highways, interesting walkable neighborhoods with diverse styles of architecture, I want to see PEOPLE ON THE STREETS and not hidden away anonymously in their cars. In San Francisco, Portland, Vancouver, etc (which still lags behind many European cities), you don't HAVE to have a car, you can take the public transportation all over the city, and there's countless cultural opportunities and places to explore.
Phoenix? My God. I was there last month visiting a friend who had to be transfered there. I can't think of a more depressing place. The climate argument? I get it, I grew up in San Diego. But the heat there is oppresive. I'd rather take humidity in the high 80's than fearing everyday my windshield will explode. The suburban dream? I get it, if it meant that I didn't have to drive a mile just to grab something at a convienience store. The vast expanse of land and space? I get it, if it didn't mean barren brown desert and a yellow dust filled sky.
I've traveled all over and PHX has to be one of the most uninteresting cities. Not only did it seem like there were no people anywhere (except for streams of cars) except INSIDE restaurants or malls, there seemed to be no walkable areas except for the contrived Tempe area. Scottsdale seemed like one of those places investors said, "let's make a Disneyfied Old Town feel right here....with diagnol parking adjacent to every single sidewalk blocking the view of storefronts and the actual buildings".
There seems to be no atmosphere or ambiance anywhere. Cultural insitutions generic. Opera? Symphony? Ugh, I'm talking about interesting urban nieghborhoods with life and soul. Places I can people watch without having to sit under flourescent lighting sipping a mass corporate-produced latte/smoothie.
But the main thing for me is, that fact the city is SO unwalkable. It's like the city was built for cars, not people. And the sheer time it takes to get from one part of the city to the other.
I don't know, people. I have to get this out, and I have to ask - Why PHX? Even for job reasons, is it worth it to stay in such a bland, soulless enviornment? I just don't get it...I would be SO depressed to live there. All it is a failed American Dream unsustainable city. Imagine PHX in 50 years, will it still be liveable? Will you able to drive your car everywhere?
After a long love-affair with Thai, I'm currently more in favor of Vietnamese (mainly Pho) and VERY hot Sichuan. I've heard PF Chang has good food but I can't get used to the decor - it's incongruous to me! I've found a few decent Pho places already so I think I have the Vietnamese covered. So far, the Chinese food has been abysmal. Tonight, I tried "Flo's" which came highly recommended but ... everything seemed sweet to me. I would die to find a good dim sum place! Actually, I'd just like to go to a place where the waiters are Chinese and some of the customers too!
For hot Szechuan/Sichuan, Try China Chili, near Indian School and 3rd Street north of Downtown:
Not a chain like P.F. Changs or Flo's, Chinese owners, and waiters, good food.
China King in Chandler (1050 W. Ray Road) (Ray Road @ Alma School Road) is supposed to have good Dim Sum, but I've never been there. Call first to make sure they are still in business: (480) 899-8099.
Here's a link from the Chowhound website for Dim Sum recommendations in the Phoenix area - again, businesses go under quickly, so I'd check forst to make sure they are around still:
The heat! Dear God, the wonderful HEAT! It's one of the reasons I live here!
I was born here (one of the 7 natives in this city). I've spent many, many summers here. My house didn't have air conditioning as a kid, and my first two cars had black vinyl interiors and no AC. Let me give you a hint about how to survive the heat. Just tell yourself it's good. Keep repeating that to yourself. And it is.
The heat keeps our population (already too large) down. If it wasn't for the almost unendurable heat, we would be larger than New York. We're far too big already, thanks to all you effete transplants.
The heat makes it difficult to garden. Every one of you who comes here and wants to make your front yard look like you're still back home in Resume Speed, Indiana or Mashed Potato Falls, Ohio try to plant rose bushes and big green lawns and apple trees, using up our valuable water. But Old Sol, our blessed ultraviolent-pumping class M star, kills your lawns and turns your rose bushes into pathetic, dry stalks. Unless you toil night and day. You live in a desert. Remember that.
The heat can be mind-altering and put you into a (natural) altered state of consciousness. To paraphrase Frank Herbert, God created the desert to train the faithful. As I feel the heavy pressure of the superheated air swirl around my body and pump through my lungs, I marvel at the fact I can live here, in this most inhospitable climate, by dint of will (and the marvels of air conditioning). I remember the fact that all of the major messianic religions arose out of desert regions, and think of the inner resources that must be called upon to survive here, or even to just hold a coherent thought in your head for more than a minute at a time.
The heat is actually good for your body. The warmth suffuses your joints and tissues and makes your body feel limber and alive. Who needs to pay for a Bikram Yoga class in a sweaty, superheated parlor? Just step outside. Old joint injuries disappear. A water sprinkler turns every back yard into a child's water park. Physical love is a wonderful, slippery experience as your bodies slip and slide. Old people don't have to worry about slipping on an icy sidewalk and breaking their hip. Only heat stroke.
The heat is Green. It costs less and damages the environment far less to air condition a home in the southwest all summer than to heat a house in the north all winter.
The heat is better than natural disasters. I've had to live in places where hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados, ice storms, race riots, and celebrity murder trials are common. None of that here. Only the heat, the microwave-oven-like heat, and you know that's coming every year and can prepare for it.
The heat creates an ecology that is a marvel to behold. The demands of survival in this land have created marvels of natural engineering in the plants and animals that live here. The biodiversity and sheer evolutionary ingenuity of life here is astonishing and more entrancing (and often deadly!) than anywhere else in our republic.
The heat is rhythmic. We can stand anything if we know it will end. As humans, we crave novelty, even as we aso crave security. But too much novelty feels like chaos, and too much security leads to stagnation. The wonderful rhythm of the seasons gives us what our souls need, as C.S. Lewis pointed out. The heat comes, we endure it, then the sweet, cool fall and winter, a beautiful time in Phoenix. And so it goes, over and over and over again.
And lastly...
You can always go to San Diego for the weekend. Legoland is always nice.
Are you truly serious about what you wrote above?
You think it's great that nice bushes and roses being killed off by the heat is a good thing?
Heat is good for a body? Heat is green and good for the ecology? Huh?
Yes oh yes, I believe you did go without air-conditioning in your house and cars because it sure sounds like the heat has affected your state of mind! You can't really be serious can you, naaah, not unless your mind is really altered or roasted from the heat you seem to love so much.
Lastly, Legoland sux!
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Pretty soon in a couple of yrs Arizona will have a beach front
