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Left to rot? I live in Crafton about a 10 minute drive to the West End. I see an accupuncturist on Wabash. I took out of town guests to the Village Tavern on S Main twice last week. Today I had my car detailed at Kirk Auto Detail on Neptune and walked to Cafe 412 on S Main to have lunch and work while I waited for my car. While there I chatted with a commercial fire door salesman who was about to give a presentation to the architecture firm down the street. Doesn't feel like a rotting neighborhood to me. BTW, it was my first visit to Kirk Auto Detail and they did an excellent job for less than most places charge. I was very impressed and will definitely go back.
I think the West End is a little gem. It is going to be helped greatly by this new building. I am honestly thinking of cashing out here in Lawrenceville for a place over there. It is just enough urban stuff to keep busy, yet quiet enough and away from the madness of the rest of the city.
On the other hand I am looking at Sheridan and Crafton Heights. Those neighborhoods have certainly been forgotten the last 15 years. One could make the argument that Sheridan was left to rot. Crafton Heights is still borderline along with Elliot. It hasn’t fallen as hard as Sheridan. The city wants to grow its population. This is a great forgotten neighborhood to start. Mostly residential and right along the west busway for transportation. You have access to downtown, but also access to Carnegie and it’s little business disrtict, yet you could have enough peace and quiet away from the rest of the urban madness. They city needs a plan for Elliot, crafton heights and Sheridan.
And you live in Crafton Borough. Would you vote to annex your borough into the city of Pittsburgh? Why or why not? To me there is a world of difference when you cross into crafton borough but that is just me.
And you live in Crafton Borough. Would you vote to annex your borough into the city of Pittsburgh? Why or why not? To me there is a world of difference when you cross into crafton borough but that is just me.
I think you and tyovan4 also need to keep in perspective that out of the 130 municipalities in Allegheny County, the City of Pittsburgh is NOT performing the most poorly. It makes sense for the city to absorb the suburbs that don't really seem to be treading water on their own anymore (Mt. Oliver Borough, Wilkinsburg Borough). It may NOT make sense or be desirable for residents of a thriving place like Crafton Borough or Bellevue Borough to be absorbed into the city.
I don't see why you think Pittsburgh annexing Wilkinsburg or Mt. Oliver, for example, would be analogous to when Pittsburgh annexed Allegheny City generations ago. Do you honestly think Wilkinsburg or Mt. Oliver are doing better than Pittsburgh? If so, then you really need to open your eyes more. Out of the 90 city neighborhoods perhaps less than 10 are doing more poorly than either Mt. Oliver or Wilkinsburg.
I think you and tyovan4 also need to keep in perspective that out of the 130 municipalities in Allegheny County, the City of Pittsburgh is NOT performing the most poorly. It makes sense for the city to absorb the suburbs that don't really seem to be treading water on their own anymore (Mt. Oliver Borough, Wilkinsburg Borough). It may NOT make sense or be desirable for residents of a thriving place like Crafton Borough or Bellevue Borough to be absorbed into the city.
I don't see why you think Pittsburgh annexing Wilkinsburg or Mt. Oliver, for example, would be analogous to when Pittsburgh annexed Allegheny City generations ago. Do you honestly think Wilkinsburg or Mt. Oliver are doing better than Pittsburgh? If so, then you really need to open your eyes more. Out of the 90 city neighborhoods perhaps less than 10 are doing more poorly than either Mt. Oliver or Wilkinsburg.
I think they are better off on their own. Again what would be the benefit for Wilkinsburg and Mt. Oliver to annex into the city? There has to be something that is going to be of value for the residents to do so.
Wilkinsburg is better than Homewood and point breeze north. Mt. Oliver Borough is better than neighboring Mt. Oliver city, beltzhoover and Knoxville. You can’t just say it’s going to be better. What can the city provide at a better value that isn’t provided by their current govt?
I think they are better off on their own. Again what would be the benefit for Wilkinsburg and Mt. Oliver to annex into the city? There has to be something that is going to be of value for the residents to do so.
Wilkinsburg property taxes would go way, way down if it were annexed by the city. Of course income taxes would rise, but I still think the average resident would be taxed at a lower rate. More importantly, since businesses and commercial property owners pay property tax but not personal income tax, it would make more financial sense for landlords, retailers, and other businesses to invest in improving and expanding existing buildings. As it is now the only time that happens in Wilkinsburg is with heavy government subsidies or the sweat equity of homeowners in the stable/improving parts of the borough.
I'd argue the West End is doing better than Braddock in terms of governmental neglect. Pittsburgh has a police station there. I play basketball at Wabash Park all the time, it's a safe area. And on the non-governmental side, the theater is great (there was an excellent live rendition of Evil Dead back in Feb), and Tramps has a great karaoke and wing night if you're into that sorta thing. And the West End is much easier to get to than Braddock from an infrastructure standpoint for more of the region.
South of Sarah Street is fine? I'm a bit confused by this one. I work in the South Side and spend most of my time there. Do you mean south of Josephene where the slopes start? Because much of that has been improving all the way up even into Allentown too. But yeah, if you get closer to Mt Oliver (an independent city) it gets rougher and their business district has little to no investment.
And north of Ohio street is great - are you saying the Mexican War Streets are neglected? Or the park? The business district seems to be doing well these days.
Back to objectivity:
The vacuum argument is pointing out that Allegheny didn't function in a vacuum. Just about everything in the area that was developed and/or built out prior to 1950 has lost population. Some example cities you mentioned earlier that would have no benefit include Etna, who have lost roughly the same share of population as Pittsburgh since 1950. McKee's Rocks and Braddock have far worse drops. Adding to this list, we could show that most of these pre-war areas have typically lost the same, if not more than Pittsburgh.
My point is that it's just as easy to argue (with evidence) that Allegheny could have been worse off without Pittsburgh too.
Back to subjectivity (again).
Do I think the city's urban renewal policies were a failure? Yes
Do I think the city was wrong to build highways in the former Allegheny city? No
Do I think the city could have done better with building the highways? Absolutely Yes
Do I think Pittsburgh has been mismanaged and hasn't always properly invested? Yes
But on that last point - I think some of us are letting our bias about the city government too strongly shape our opinion. Suggesting that Allegheny City would have been this great beacon of light that would have never seen the decline of existing local industries, the rise and fall of bricks and mortar retail, civil rights issues and white flight DESPITE these things happening to essentially every single urbanized area in this area of the country post-WW2, especially in this region, is a huge fantasy.
I mean, it's a beautiful fantasy. But be realistic. Next you'll tell me Allegheny city would have also avoided all of the cloudy days and winter weather.
I think Allegheny City would’ve declined in Population. Would it have declined from 145,000 to 35,000? Probably not. Unfortunately we will never know what could’ve been. It sure sounds like ACs government was much better run than Pittsburgh’s. Again it was a growing and thriving city in 1906, when it was annexed. By the 1950s it had become a rundown area of the city. So it was declining as part of Pittsburgh, not as its own city. I still don’t think the merger benefitted the North Side. It would’ve been better to stay independent.
McKeesport exists because it had its own industry and downtown. It didn’t exist because of Pittsburgh in the first place. It is so far disconnected from Pittsburgh it should be in another county. The mon valley existed because of its own industry, not due to Pittsburgh. Even though it has struggled those areas are better being independent. You answered yes to your own questions 1, 3,4. Those are the reasons why nobody would want to merge with Pittsburgh. I actually believe those places would do worse under city rule.
Braddock lost a ton of population. It gave birth to a great leader who was the mayor and now Lt. Governor. He wasn’t running to Pittsburgh for help. He put Braddock on the map by himself and stopped the bleeding over there to try and right the ship. If Braddock was part of the city, it would be likely forgotten and we wouldn’t know John Fetterman and have a voice from this part of the state in the second most powerful state position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton
Wilkinsburg property taxes would go way, way down if it were annexed by the city. Of course income taxes would rise, but I still think the average resident would be taxed at a lower rate. More importantly, since businesses and commercial property owners pay property tax but not personal income tax, it would make more financial sense for landlords, retailers, and other businesses to invest in improving and expanding existing buildings. As it is now the only time that happens in Wilkinsburg is with heavy government subsidies or the sweat equity of homeowners in the stable/improving parts of the borough.
Don’t forget Pittsburgh has a 4 percent real estate transfer tax to Wilkinsburgs 1 percent. You can buy a nice home in regent square and enjoy the amenities of frick park without the city wage tax and real estate transfer tax. Homes there sell for pretty much the same amount. If anything landlords and homeowners would be against the merger just for the real estate tax. Plus Wilkinsburg penn water is a better utility than PWSA. I wouldn’t want to risk them delivering water to my house vs WPJ.
That said I still don’t see a benefit for Wilkinsburg to merge with the city. They still appear to have higher taxes. I know you are trying, but this is the reason nobody is chomping at the bit to do it.
A young black woman, Maurita Garrett is mayor there. She isn’t chomping at the bit to give away her job and merge with Pittsburgh. She is a young progressive as well.
The city has one thing most other municipalities that surround it don’t. A paid fire department and well staffed EMS division. The mayor should be trying to market those services. You can live in Ingram borough, pay one percent wage tax, send your kids montour and have the Pittsburgh fire bureau respond to your house. If anything we will see sharing services as opposed to mergers.
I’m surprised the fire union isn’t all about this service providing. The city gets the fee from the municipality it contracts out to. The union can justify more fire jobs.
And are you implying subsidies don’t drive development in the city? LOL. This is a heavily subsidized city when it comes to development.
And you live in Crafton Borough. Would you vote to annex your borough into the city of Pittsburgh? Why or why not? To me there is a world of difference when you cross into crafton borough but that is just me.
Honestly, I haven't given it much thought. But it does seem odd to walk a few blocks and be in Crafton Heights in the city of Pittsburgh. Like anything else, there are pros and cons. The biggest pro would be lower property taxes. Crafton's are very high. I doubt most people here would be in favor of it, however. It's a well run prosperous borough and I think residents would be afraid of losing the control they have as an independent entity. OTOH, there would be economies of scale that would likely make sense.
Honestly, I haven't given it much thought. But it does seem odd to walk a few blocks and be in Crafton Heights in the city of Pittsburgh. Like anything else, there are pros and cons. The biggest pro would be lower property taxes. Crafton's are very high. I doubt most people here would be in favor of it, however. It's a well run prosperous borough and I think residents would be afraid of losing the control they have as an independent entity. OTOH, there would be economies of scale that would likely make sense.
I am not surprised by your response. You are an outsider and see it. Imagine growing up there and not living anywhere else. I’m sure their opinions are very strong on it. Regardless you are right. People are happy being separate from the city. And as you said Crafton is a well run Borough. There has to be incentive for the residents of a municipality to merge with the city. It’s even a reach to say Wilkinsburg would benefit. You can split hairs on that one, but the mayor over there and residents aren’t pushing for it to happen. It is still probably better on its own. The property taxes may be higher, but the wage tax and real estate transfer tax is much lower. That’s a big deal when buying or selling a property.
There are dreams of increasing the city population by annexation. I don’t see that happening anytime locally. There is a reason it hasn’t happened for a long time. And it was discussed in depth on this thread. There is a history. Nobody wants to become the next North Side, nor do people want to become irrelevant and neglected like Sheridan and Carrick. Especially when they were great places to live at one time.
The only thing see the city expanding its services. The fire and ems bureaus are a good sale to contract out to suburbs. The likelihood of Crafton borough or etna doing that is much greater than a municipal merger. Especially when volunteer fire fighters are shrinking and aging in number. Ingram did it because it probably cost the same or less to contract it out to a paid organization rather than pay for equipment and hope volunteers staff it.
In the case of Crafton I'd be in favor of it retaining its independence BUT ALSO absorbing adjacent Ingram Borough. There's no justification for Ingram to exist independently of Crafton. As it stands the joint "Downtown" of both boroughs is the "Crafton-Ingram Shopping Center". Both boroughs are safe, dense, and fairly walkable. They currently complement each other very well. They should merge into one.
In my dream world?
Mt. Oliver and Wilkinsburg dissolve into Pittsburgh.
Ingram dissolves into Crafton.
Avalon dissolves into Bellevue.
Edgeworth, Leetsdsale, Glen Osborne, Haysville, and Glenfield ALL dissolve into Sewickley.
Emsworth and Ben Avon Heights dissolve into Ben Avon.
Sewickley Heights, Sewickley Hills, and Bell Acres merge into one community with a new name (Sewickley View?)
Thornburg, Rosslyn Farms, and Pennsbury Village all merge into one community with a new name (Pennsburg Farms?)
Heidelberg dissolves into Carnegie
North Braddock is split in half and dissolves---half going to Braddock and half going to East Pittsburgh
Braddock Hills and Chalfant dissolve into Forest Hills
Rankin dissolves into Braddock
Edgewood and Swissvale merge into Edgevale
Wilmerding and Wall dissolve into East McKeesport
Port Vue, Liberty and Glassport all merge into one community with a new name (Liberty Vue?)
Cheswick dissolves into Springdale
No, we don't need to merge EVERYTHING to get only like 3 towns in Allegheny County, but 130 separate ones with many only have a couple thousand people is just absurd.
The only thing see the city expanding its services. The fire and ems bureaus are a good sale to contract out to suburbs. The likelihood of Crafton borough or etna doing that is much greater than a municipal merger. Especially when volunteer fire fighters are shrinking and aging in number. Ingram did it because it probably cost the same or less to contract it out to a paid organization rather than pay for equipment and hope volunteers staff it.
I like Councils of Governments - they help voluntarily regionalize municipal government services and provide subject matter expertise on issues that smaller municipalities may not have the depth or bandwidth for.
Shaler EMS is doing what you advocate. They have expanded into Hampton, and also picked up Etna (which switched from Seneca EMS).
Usually I'm not a fan of the 'Pittsburgh has unique and challenging topography' excuses that deflect attention from some of this region's problems. However, I think that emergency response is one area where it must be absolutely taken into account.
In so many places in this region, to go from Point A to Point C - you have to go through Point B. Otherwise, you're taking a detour along the scenic route through Points X, Y, and Z.
Since a bridge divides us in Etna from the City, I'd be very leery of having a bridge between us and our emergency responders. So while I do agree that there is a role for regionalization of municipal services (including emergency services), I do believe that the crazy topography here must be taken into account.
With all of this being said, when Etna suffered from a massive fire in a warehouse in the spring - mutual aid arrived from MANY neighboring communities. Very surprisingly to me, the City of Pittsburgh sent their professional firefighters (along with specialty resources) to help us. So I will certainly acknowledge and express my gratitude for that assistance which our neighbors across the river provided to us.
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With all of this being said, when Etna suffered from a massive fire in a warehouse in the spring - mutual aid arrived from MANY neighboring communities. Very surprisingly to me, the City of Pittsburgh sent their professional firefighters (along with specialty resources) to help us. So I will certainly acknowledge and express my gratitude for that assistance which our neighbors across the river provided to us.
why is that surprising?
from reading this interesting thread, I'll say i doubt there is this animosity in pgh against surrounding municipalities.
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