JUST IN. Century III Mall to close. (Pittsburgh, Lebanon: transfer to, movie theater)

[greg42]

Originally Posted by Moby Hick

So a lifestyle center is where you go to the movie and a power center is where you buy toilet paper?

LOL Sounds about right.

A lifestyle center is more akin to mall, but most of these would now be open-air.

A power center is typically less stylized and the "power" comes from the concentration of multiple big-box stores.

The Waterfront is a good example of both. Although small, the section near the cinema would technically fall under lifestyle center. The segment on the other side with all the box stores is quite the power center, no small stores at all if I remember right but several large boxes.

Older strip malls are often somewhere in between.

[SteelCityRising]

South Side Works would be another prime example of a "lifestyle center". McCandless Crossings aspired to be a lifestyle center but looks more like a "power center" to me.

Come to think of it, a LOT of the major suburban areas around here lack a sort of central focal point or "faux downtown". At least in Northern Virginia---land of a thousand Cranberry Townships strung together---there were places like Reston Town Center, Dulles Town Center, Fairfax Town Center, etc. to give people a place to gather, recreate, shop, dine, work, live, etc. in an old-fashioned walkable environment. I wonder why Cranberry Township doesn't have something like this. Doesn't it have around 30,000 residents with many thousands more in the surrounding communities? Do people there just enjoy driving to Butler or Pittsburgh whenever they need a quick-fix of urbanity? Since there is no "faux downtown" in Baldwin, Jefferson Hills, Pleasant Hills, West Mifflin, and that entire surrounding area the revamp of Century III as a "lifestyle center" may actually be just what it needs.

[greg42]

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

Come to think of it, a LOT of the major suburban areas around here lack a sort of central focal point or "faux downtown". At least in Northern Virginia---land of a thousand Cranberry Townships strung together---there were places like Reston Town Center, Dulles Town Center, Fairfax Town Center, etc. to give people a place to gather, recreate, shop, dine, work, live, etc. in an old-fashioned walkable environment. I wonder why Cranberry Township doesn't have something like this.

Well, there are a couple of possibilities for this. There was meant to be a larger lifestyle center called in fact Cranberry Town Center at the I-79/Rt 228 area (just east of I-79 and north of 228). Simon (as in the company with a lot of malls) was the developer, and although Simon is primarily a retail developer this was to incorporate some commercial office space and potentially residential I believe. This fell through because of a gap in funding the necessary road improvements. Simon wouldn't budge on contributing more, the township wouldn't budge on contributing more and PennDOT wouldn't budge on contributing more. This fell through either last year or late 2011. The result is...nothing happening there although they are moving forward with the I-79 ramp improvements (extra ramps so there won't have to be those left turns from 228).

The other is whatever is slated for Rochester Rd at Rt 19 across from the municipal building. I don't really know what is supposed to happen there. It is slated for a "town center" development. I don't expect this to incorporate a lifestyle center exactly, but it is meant to have some retail, high-density residential and office space I believe.

The Streets of Cranberry is a small lifestyle center in design and store makeup but way too small and not the right mix to serve this sort of purpose really. It's strictly retail and restaurants.

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

Do people there just enjoy driving to Butler or Pittsburgh whenever they need a quick-fix of urbanity?

This is a little bit different question. I don't think there would be much thought given to Butler. Only the old-timers who are decades-long Cranberry residents would likely have any notion of heading that way. People who lived there before I-279 opened, basically, because before then it would have been much slower to get down to Pittsburgh. But that's really beside the point. The reality is, who needs a "quick-fix of urbanity"? The people who have chosen to live out there typically have no interest in that. Or at least, they don't place a high priority on it. They would use such a lifestyle center or similar if it were there, but they can get by without it equally well it seems. That is my hunch anyway.

But even if that is the case, the township's plan is to encourage such improvements. There is a plan adopted that views these as important. There are other parts of the township that are zoned for "traditional neighborhood development" which is is the idea here. A lot of what is wrong with these places arose from the theory of zoning where you put commercial over here and residential over there and never the twain shall meet sort of thing. You probably don't want to live next to industrial, but commercial office/retail and residential can get along nicely when done right. Of course, doing that may not have been the problem; the problem is more likely people's insatiable desire for a detached house with yard. That trend is slowly shifting though, at least a little, but as is often the case, a little bit behind the trends around here.

Bit beyond the scope of this thread but whatever.

[scrapp]

Originally Posted by UKyank

The Waterfront is helped by it being the only shopping convenient to areas of the City with lots of disposable income namely Squirrel Hill & the SouthSide whereas Century III falls out of the radius of what constitutes a quick trip. The Costco there helps the area immensely in bringing those with $ to the complex as well.

I agree it is a draw from the city, but I think its importance has been reduced as the number of retail options in the city has increased (e.g. the new East Liberty Target). That definitely reduced the number of times we go there (from Sq Hill). Last time I was out there, it seemed like the number of vacant stores has increased. When they close the Greenfield bridge for replacement that is going to hurt the Waterfront even more.

[Clint.]

The area occupied by the mall and its parking lot looks to be about 90-100 acres. It is almost totally flat and surrounded by infrastructure and mid-level big box retail. The site used to be a slag dump for U.S. Steel as well as coal mines, so no sprawl. Not to mention that it is currently totally covered in concrete, ha, ha.

The eastern area is sparsely populated, but areas to the north, west and south are fairly dense but with significantly varying average income levels. I don't really have time to figure the total population and income at the moment, but figure it would cinlude the following-

It could easily pull naturally from: Jefferson Hills, West Mifflin, Elizabeth, West Elizabeth, Pleasant Hills, Baldwin, Whitehall, Brentwood, Lincoln Place, Dravosburg, Clairton.

Less certain but neighborhoods still within reasonable radius are: Castle Shannon, parts of South Park, Carrick, Brookline, Dormont.

McKeesport? White Oak? Glassport? Port Vue? North Huntington? ...I'm not sure how far out that way one can go and expect much inflow from those along Rt. 30. I don't know much about the area, but doubt many would travel in unless it offered something they couldn't get near the population centers closer to them.

The east side of the Mon near Elizabeth is really sparsely populated, and that is the are closest to Century III. Going south on the west side of the Mon near Clairton is also sparesely populated. The Mon Valley also has long-term average income problems.

We've all seen the temporality of retail and know in the absence of other surrounding economic activities it is nothing to bank on long-term, so that would have to factor in to whatever becomes of it, e.g., limiting retail to 50% or something, as Neuro mentioned.

[UKyank]

Just too many overlapping mall type options in what is now many depressed areas. South Hills Village is less then 10 miles away & can pull customers from the wealthier areas such as Upper St Clair, mt Lebanon, South Park, etc whereas Century III needs to rely on areas such as Mckeesport, Elizabeth, Clairton, etc; go further north & the Waterfront siphons off customers $ further east Monroeville takes them.

Each of the shopping places have a limited radius of customers to pull from & when the income of the available customers & the areas you rely on take a hit economically the mall suffers. When a malls reputation takes a hit for no longer being 'cool' this further exasperates things as those potential customers nearer the edge of your radius will choose to drive just a bit further to go to one of the other options.

[captainmidnight]

Regarding The Waterfront, I remember an article from years ago in one of the newspapers that said the developers were deciding between the current location and McKeesport, home to the present day (mostly empty) RIDC Park: RIDC Home

I remember the article saying the developers chose the current location because of easier access to Pittsburgh and the area being close to more affluent areas. Can't argue with their rationale. I wish I had the time right now to find the article but I do not. (The article also mentioned a better access ramp for the entrance to the Waterfront was designed but never built due to cost concerns).

The Waterfront is a busy place. It is showing some signs of wear, though. People from all over the region go there. I worked at Kennywood back in the early 2000's and often we would go to The Waterfront after work to hangout. We have friends who live in Peters Township and Mt Lebo and we have met them at The Waterfront several times for dinner. It is amazing once you cross the railroad tracks, Homestead is pretty much the same. the same would have happened if The Waterfront was built in McKeesport.

[Clint.]

Originally Posted by bmantz65

Regarding The Waterfront, I remember an article from years ago in one of the newspapers that said the developers were deciding between the current location and McKeesport, home to the present day (mostly empty) RIDC Park: RIDC Home

Figuring out what to do with these vast tracts of post-industrial land, as highlighted on the RIDC site, is a big economic problem. Sometimes it seems so hopeless that planting trees and letting nature reclaim them and turning them into conservatories would be better than letting them sit vacant like they have for decades. Although, I'm sure those with sentimental or vested interests in the area don't feel the same way.

[Stijl Council]

Originally Posted by scrapp

I agree it is a draw from the city, but I think its importance has been reduced as the number of retail options in the city has increased (e.g. the new East Liberty Target). That definitely reduced the number of times we go there (from Sq Hill).

Agreed -- when traffic's not an issue I'm a 5 or 10 minute drive from the Waterfront, and I don't think I've been down there in the last three months.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by greg42

The reality is, who needs a "quick-fix of urbanity"? The people who have chosen to live out there typically have no interest in that. Or at least, they don't place a high priority on it.

Yup, I think you nailed it.