Collective vs individual, i.e. Europe vs US - or is it?

[ergohead]

Originally Posted by Greatday

Because I believe the other poster is correct. He and I believe in individual freedoms - while you do not.

Many socialists/communists will not understand what you mean.

A communist Chinese couple once told me, when suggesting I move to China about 1996, that in China, as long as you do what you are told to do, you have all the freedom in the world to do what you are told to do.

They said it wasn't really that much different over here.

[Nomander]

Originally Posted by ergohead

Many socialists/communists will not understand what you mean.

A communist Chinese couple once told me, when suggesting I move to China about 1996, that in China, as long as you do what you are told to do, you have all the freedom in the world to do what you are told to do.

They said it wasn't really that much different over here.

Yep, some people just don't seem to understand the contradiction in their claim. You can ask them to repeat it over again and have them really listen to what they are saying. You can even give them hints as to what is wrong with their logic, but they simply give you blank stares because they just do not see it.

Unfortunately, people like such will not understand until they wake up one day and are under the thumb of a massive tyrant. Then it clicks, but of course, then it is too late.

I honestly do not wish to change people in other countries if they decide that is what they want, but if they come to me demanding conformity to their view, pushing me to change, I start looking for my rifle because I know what is coming eventually.

[Neuling]

Lol, what does Europe have to do with China? Live in both regions and you will know the difference.

All that talk of collective vs individual is typical of the human tendency to simplify things. Europeans are just as individualistic as Americans. On both sides of the Atlantic there are masses of people who like to follow and adapt to others, and masses of people who are the opposite of that.

On average Europeans enjoy at least as much individual and political freedom as Americans. Study the freedom house rankings etc. and you will notice that Europeans are in some respects even more free than Americans these days, especially in northern European countries. For instance there is less government and corporate intrusion over here, which shows for instance in the small print of contracts for online services. When American companies offer their services over here they have to include a warning that says the user agrees to the inadequate US privacy and data protection policies as data will be stored on US servers.
There is more social/economic mobility over here, greater freedom of press, less sniffing on the part of secret services.
And those who want to are free to become entrepreneurs. Just today I heard a German billionaire has died. And guess what, his billions weren't accumulated social security payments
Not to mention that we are more free from violent crime and the death penalty, which has cost a number of innocent people their lives in the States, here in the worst-case scenario, when investigators and courts screw up completely, you go to jail and your case can be opened any time. Once you are executed, a posthumous acquittal is worthless.

I know, you still grow up being told America is the best etc. and that Europe is socialist and Iran is evil and all that nonsence, but reality just doesn't support your views anymore. But keep living in your illusion, while the world is overtaking you, not just Europe... Americans living in Germany and Portugal (and probably in other European countries as well, but I have not spoken to any of them) love it here, the longer they have been here, the more they appreciate what they have.

The only thing that is better in the US is that young men are not by law forced to join the army or do replacement service.