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Since we have that discussion going on in the climate thread where it really does not belong, maybe it is better to open a thread on it...
So, some people in the other thread say that unlike the US, Europe is all about collective at the expense of the individual; that in Europe governments can just take your property away, etc.
We have safeguards against dictatorships. When Germany for instance authored its new constitution they of course knew of other constitutions including the American one, but they deliberately did not adopt them because they were not convinced of them. Different priorities, cultures etc.
Maybe over there human rights are a side note, we believe in them and live them. Guantanamo, waterboarding, starting wars without being attacked etc. are not exactly recent European phenomena
Depending on who you talk to, the EU can be considered a dictatorship because the EU Directives are not drawn up by the MEPs they just have a vote on whether to adopt said measures. Also if Europe respects freedom of the individual, why did the various Parliaments in Europe not vote in a referendum on the EU Constitution (renaming it the Lisbon Treaty) and countries that had voted no, were subject to scare tactics and more voting rounds until they voted yes?
Like so often Americans talk about theory and their constitution, while we just live and are ahead of the US in pretty much any ranking regarding freedom, quality of life, safety, etc. I have already posted links and can post more if necessary.
We have 300 million people and counting, and many new immigrants are poor relatives from the 3rd world and illiterate illegal immigrants. We are not a homogeneous society like Europe is to a large extent and much of the reason why Europe has a higher quality of life is that there is less people chasing money in your countries.
Nope, our constitutions are worded the way they are to benefit society as a whole, not government. Indeed society, the collective plays a greater role over here, and rightly so. We don't want American-style societies.
That's why European countries are good at adopting policies which aim to restrict free speech and the like. Whether you like it or not, racists and neo-Nazis should have free speech even if you don't agree with their views but allowing them free speech also allows you free speech to counter them.The collective plays a bigger role in Europe than here, which means that it's ok for government to restrict freedoms so long as one group isn't offended by someone else's rights. In my case I used the example of racism.
The differences regarding eminent domain are actually not that big between the US and Europe, compare here Eminent domain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . The procedures of expropriation differ quite a bit, but in the end each country directly or indirectly recognizes that the good of society is more important than that of a few individuals. Plus, people here can and do challenge any such decision in court as well. I know those legal battles sometimes take years, for instance when runways are added to airports and thus people need to be resettled. Usually the price of compensation is sooner or later adjusted a bit to enable the individual to lose the case without losing face.
What about those expats that got suckered into buying illegal property on the Spanish coasts? Andalucía, Murcia, and Valencia are not compensating them for it. They are bulldozing the houses in the name of the collectively to not spoil the coast but at the coast of individual freedom because your government took your house away and bulldozed it into the ground.
There is no country on earth where important infrastructure projects benefiting all of society are blocked because of a couple of homes or acres of farmland. I like that old Japanese philosophical school of thought where they completely disassemble their homes once a year and then reassemble them, just to refresh the understanding that a house is only bricks and wood, just material stuff, nothing to cling to.
I guess by and large people over here don't have that infamous American sueing mentality.
You don't have the suing mentality that we do, but we don't suffer from the ridiculous political correctness laws that you have. You have to be walking on eggshells there lest, God forbid (or is it Allah now? I can't remember), you slightly offend someone and that is going to have to be treated as a racial incident.
I accept your defending your constitution where individuals seem to be favored, still I would like to make clear that when you say "if you disagree you are wrong" you are being silly. You don't need to be that self-opinionated just to prove your point. It still is nothing but your opinion, no more valuable than mine or anyone else's. I know when one grows up believing something and someone else things differently, we tend to say they are wrong. It is similar to Muslims saying every non-Muslim is wrong.
Comparing this issue to rape among indians is ridiculous. There is a clear line between mere material pocessions and the violation of a person's body and mind. I know differentiation is cumbersome, but it is worth it to prevent the impression of being superficial.
Where did I claim 'debunked'? I can't remember ever having used that word. What is the number of that posting you refer to?
My reply is in red. Copied and pasted it from the global warming topic
Greatday got it right. But individuals only providing for themsleves would turn into mayhem! If you fall in america you fall deep. It's a much more unforgiving society made up of big losers and big winners. America is about the worst developed country in the world to be poor in because people don't want to pay for others misfortunes. In my humble opinion i think your neighbors up north canada got it right. Maybe also australia and ireland. By not being as individual as the US and not as collective as Europe. After all the taxes in australia and canada arnt much higher than in the US but poor people arnt left to themselves.
I am not sure what you mean. It is the company which gives you 4-6 weeks of vacation over here. And the cost of that is subtracted from the salary so to speak. Companies over here are no welfare institutions, they try to pay as little as possible and gain as much as possible, just like in the States.
Regarding retirement, people pay their monthly contributions for that very purpose. That is why people who have been unemployed or for other reasons not paid their contributions for years usually have to work longer later on in life in order to have sufficient years of contributions to get enough retirement money to survive. Sure, one can retire at 65 or 67 or whatever the age is in each particular country, but usually the minimum one gets is not enough to survive.
I am not sure what you mean. It is the company which gives you 4-6 weeks of vacation over here. And the cost of that is subtracted from the salary so to speak. Companies over here are no welfare institutions, they try to pay as little as possible and gain as much as possible, just like in the States.
Regarding retirement, people pay their monthly contributions for that very purpose. That is why people who have been unemployed or for other reasons not paid their contributions for years usually have to work longer later on in life in order to have sufficient years of contributions to get enough retirement money to survive. Sure, one can retire at 65 or 67 or whatever the age is in each particular country, but usually the minimum one gets is not enough to survive.
There is no guaranteed nor required vacation here. More commonly a employer may allow you a week or two (longer in other situations) with the employee getting their "normal" pay. Although we are seeing more and more employers providing UNPAID vacations.
Here, retirement (income) is up to the employee. Those that have contributed to social security may get a portion of their contribution back. Those that did not contribute (such as myself) will never get social security. Same with medical care. It is up to the individual.
But this is the way it should be. Its not the governments role to give me a guaranteed vacation, guaranteed retirement income, guaranteed medical care.
But this is the way it should be. Its not the governments role to give me a guaranteed vacation, guaranteed retirement income, guaranteed medical care.
I posted this on another thread but that is how the government creates inflation as well. When it starts to guarantee things, thus creating false demand, inflation results. That is how the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. But anyway, that's a story for a different thread
Let's keep in mind that collectivism will be something different in Europe because most of those countries compared to the U.S are smaller and more homogenous. So they have smaller populations to manage as far as gov't services and since the majority of their populations are the same discrimination towards certain groups is less of an issue as far as it affecting their progress. Who's being discriminated against in mostly white and Christian Norway?
When I look at the poverty rate among the elderly in the US, I can't help but think that what people do is speculate things will somehow miraculously work out in the end. Oftentimes it is volunteers who have to fix that system in the end, old people depend on donations, food stamps and what not.
And with your rapidly dwindling middle class over there, fewer and fewer people are capable of saving or paying contributions voluntarily. Elderly Poverty: The Challenge Before Us
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