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prison is not working bek we got lawyers.
i am afraid long as we have lawyers punishment is not guna happen.
So you're opposed to due process.....alrighty then. Let's just throw away our current justice system, people will be guilty until proven innocent, and local law enforcement and prison wardens will decided what sentences to impose. No concern for human rights violations either. Well, my goodness, that just sounds like a wonderful way to run things.
This is where you stumble over yourself. You lump the conservative view of dealing with criminals in with other social issues. The problem with that is that you actually agree with us (me) on crime and punishment. As such, its nonsense for you to try to lump your other gripes in with crime and punishment in order to say you don't agree with us.
If you think we agree, I am glad to hear that you want to decriminalize drug possession offenses, build strong rehabilitation components in to our prison system, eliminate the death penalty, create strong social support systems for ex-offenders to limit re incarceration and want to make sure all of our jails and prisons follow international human rights standards!
lol even if they are guilty do you think spending time with a bunch of drug dealers in prison is going to make them want to stop dealing or smoking? On top of that they aren't going to get a job with a prison record. People need something different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitsua
So you're opposed to due process.....alrighty then. Let's just throw away our current justice system, people will be guilty until proven innocent, and local law enforcement and prison wardens will decided what sentences to impose. No concern for human rights violations either. Well, my goodness, that just sounds like a wonderful way to run things.
Sorry, but I think this thread is about ranting and simplistic views regarding very complex systems......the prison system and the criminal justice system. Clearly you have no idea how much work goes on in those areas to deal with and to find answers to the problems you think can be solved by "building more prisons".........geeezzzz. Simple minded solution. If the solution was simply to build more prisons and enact harsher laws, it would have already been done long ago.
Has anybody told you that cities and states across this country are having huge budget problems?
You might want to do some research and find out what prison guards think about your harsh conditions for inmates. I'm sure you'd be completely stunned. Oh, well, just dream on, about the "new HARSH prisons" you think we should build.
I appreciate your input, but I didn't really learn anything. Contrary to your belief, I have read quite a bit about corrections in the U.S. In fact, its one of the zillions of little hobbies of mine is to visit historical prisons when I travel the US and the world. Those prisons don't just pop up out of nowhere. I read about that kind of stuff. But that's besides the point. The issues that you raise are relevant, but what you've stated are the same old tired responses that have been touted for decades. No money. Bad laws. Bad Judges. Yada Yada Yada. That's precisely the "footsies" I mentioned in the OP. Our lighthearted, bureaucratic approach to dealing with punishment is as much the problem as anything else. We are a nation of laws. We are a nation of punishment. But we don't build the facilities required to handle our somewhat-heavy-handedness.
You want to build more prisons, and take a hardliner's stance on crime. Other than your especially blustery rhetoric, this is nothing new from certain areas of our political spectrum.
The US has the largest prison population in the entire world, at least as is documented. China potentially has more, but let's assume we're the highest.
The graph that I posted shows an incredible increase in the number of prisoners after the initiation of the War on Drugs, especially during the 80s, when the crack epidemic hit so many inner cities with devastating force.
The point is that an extremely large number of our immense prison population are non-violent drug offenders. Additionally, the criminalization of drugs itself attracts more crime due to street dealers attempting to corner the market/protect their turf/eliminate opposition, what have you. So our policies on drugs have resulted in an enormous outgrowth of both prisoners and crime.
But let's leave drugs alone for a minute, since that's not even the major issue. You want to make our prisons harsher for individuals inside. What do you know about life in prison? What do you know about recidivism rates? Do you want someone to go into prison for an offense and come out twice as messed up as they were before? You say all these things while pointing out that you don't care about anyone that ends up in prison, which is your own personal issue, but unless you want to lock everyone up forever, the fact that some of these people are going to eventually be released should give you pause.
Structurally, do you recognize the incredible difficulties in running our currently bloated prison system and the issues that would be exacerbated due to the expansion of this system? We are so messed up that we our outsourcing our imprisonment. Does that not strike you? Our privatized prisons are far worse than our public prisons, due to poorly-trained staff and other problems that come about due to the profit-earning (corner-cutting) nature of these organizations.
I really don't know what else to say. If our government decided that we needed to build more prisons and increase the rate of incarceration without drastically changing our justice system, it would, simply put, amount to a form of class warfare. If you take a Libertarian stance then you'll never agree with me, but at least educate yourself on our incarceration policies and trends.
Warehousing people is exactly what we need. People fear South American prisons. People fear Chinese prisons. People fear Middle Eastern prisons. Why? Because paying the piper is what prison is all about in those regions. Criminals in the U.S. don't fear prison. They only fear prison when they're about to go there. That needs to change.
Hey, I know! How about this for a solution: since you seem to be such a proponent, why don't you move to South America, China, or the Middle East? Maybe that way you'll get experience first-hand the joys and pitfalls of a real "hard-line" police state (hint: they don't really buy into that whole "Constitution" thing over there, and they're not so concerned with your "rights"). In the mean time, we'll stay over here and enjoy our Miranda Rights. Have fun!
If you think we agree, I am glad to hear that you want to decriminalize drug possession offenses, build strong rehabilitation components in to our prison system, eliminate the death penalty, create strong social support systems for ex-offenders to limit re incarceration and want to make sure all of our jails and prisons follow international human rights standards!
I love it when people agree with me!
Believe it or not, I don't disagree with you on some of those points. But the rehabilitation program is a fluke. Always has been. Always will be as long as the government is in charge of it. The government has never been good at handling social issues. The only remedy is to throw money behind something and hope it works out. We've seen time and again that it does not work out. The scope and scale required for mass rehabilitation is beyond what the scope of government can actually accomplish, so its time to forget about rehabilitation except for the most basic of criminals.
I appreciate your input, but I didn't really learn anything. Contrary to your belief, I have read quite a bit about corrections in the U.S. In fact, its one of the zillions of little hobbies of mine is to visit historical prisons when I travel the US and the world. Those prisons don't just pop up out of nowhere. I read about that kind of stuff. But that's besides the point. The issues that you raise are relevant, but what you've stated are the same old tired responses that have been touted for decades. No money. Bad laws. Bad Judges. Yada Yada Yada. That's precisely the "footsies" I mentioned in the OP. Our lighthearted, bureaucratic approach to dealing with punishment is as much the problem as anything else. We are a nation of laws. We are a nation of punishment. But we don't build the facilities required to handle our somewhat-heavy-handedness.
This is insane. You describe our "lighthearted bureaucratic approach to dealing with punishment" and then you complain that we don't have the facilities required to handle "our somewhat-heavy-handedness". Which is it? What is a fun hobby for you is a serious issue for other people, and most individuals with real contact with the system see it much differently than you.
Footsies. We a nation of punishment and you're complaining about footsies. I'd hate to live in your America.
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Let's just throw away our current justice system, people will be guilty until proven innocent, and local law enforcement and prison wardens will decided what sentences to impose. No concern for human rights violations either. Well, my goodness, that just sounds like a wonderful way to run things.
