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This is insane. You describe our "lighthearted bureaucratic approach to dealing with punishment" and then you complain that we don't have the facilities required to handle "our somewhat-heavy-handedness". Which is it? What is a fun hobby for you is a serious issue for other people, and most individuals with real contact with the system see it much differently than you.
Footsies. We a nation of punishment and you're complaining about footsies. I'd hate to live in your America.
Are you a criminal? I'm guessing not. Then why are you against more prison facilities? Crime is not going away. The laws are not changing. So what's your preferred method of dealing with it?
And yes, we take a lighthearted, bureaucratic approach to dealing with punishment because we won't build more prisons - we simply let people out for "good behavior." That's lighthearted. That's bureacracy.
Reappropriation of funds. No new taxes are needed. In fact, reappropriation would solve many of this nations fiscal ills, but i'll save that for another thread.
If you're not willing to accept tax increases to build more prisons, you really don't support it.
Funny how a self declared conservative is fine with expansion of government power as long as there are no tax increases.
Imprisoning too many people is what's causing states to go broke right now. It could not be done without drastic increases in taxes, and isn't even effective in reducing crime.
You need to read this article, from a CONSERVATIVE magazine:
If you're not willing to accept tax increases to build more prisons, you really don't support it.
Funny how a self declared conservative is fine with expansion of government power as long as there are no tax increases.
Imprisoning too many people is what's causing states to go broke right now. It could not be done without drastic increases in taxes, and isn't even effective in reducing crime.
You need to read this article, from a CONSERVATIVE magazine:
I look forward to reading that article. I really do.
In the meantime, I stand by my "reappropriation" comment. It defies all logic to assume that this government doesn't have the money. Discretionary funds abound. The problem is your legislators simply will not give up what they've been accustomed to handing out to those who wield influence (and campaign donations).
Building more prisons is not an extension of government power by the way. I concede that harsher sentences may be, but those are merely an extension of an existing punishment. Without the crime, there is no big government.
There's nowhere else to take this conversation. You want to see the world in black and white, with people on one hand, and subhuman criminal scum on the other. There is no desire to think harder about the circumstances and situations that create crime, or to consider the possibility that some criminals are human as well. You seem to have a fetish for punishment or some personal experience which has you feeling unsafe. Do you really think our prison system is that lenient? Do you have any sources to back you up on this?
Look, I believe our justice system is fundamentally broken, which is why we have so many prisoners in the first place. Creating more prisons should be at THE BOTTOM of our priority list. If you want to talk about the worst of the worst, fine. We've got supermax prisons, and obviously there are people who need to be put there, away from society, forever. What we're really talking about here is the magnitude of the system, which from my position is simply indefensible. Any talk of making more prisons is insane if you accept that our policies are poorly implemented.
I'm against more prisons because we already have too many. I'm against more prisons because if you create more prisons you'll feel obligated to fill them up, regardless of whether or not it's appropriate. I'm against more prisons because our love of incarceration distracts us from the root cause of crime, which is poverty, inequality, and ignorance. If you really choose to believe that some people are inherently good, some people are inherently evil, and it's as simple as that, then just state so explicitly and I'll be good enough to stop responding to you.
Are you a criminal? I'm guessing not. Then why are you against more prison facilities? Crime is not going away. The laws are not changing. So what's your preferred method of dealing with it?
And yes, we take a lighthearted, bureaucratic approach to dealing with punishment because we won't build more prisons - we simply let people out for "good behavior." That's lighthearted. That's bureacracy.
Crime is in fact going away. Moderator cut: Please discuss the topic, not each other. The existing jail space in America is totally up to the task of permanently incarcerating the incorrigible. Thing is, your flawed criminal justice system has been so busy scapegoating [WARNING: Race Card in play] black Americans that America's prisons are glutted with small time felons serving 25 to life sentences for all manner of quality of life transgressions while serial rapists and murderers get 6 years and parole, if they are white. My guess, every time you see a doo rag you think it's because there isn't enough jail space. You should get out of DC and move to Montana. In Montana white guys do go to prison because there aren't any black guys to send in their place. You could have gone to prison at least six times in the last 10 years but didn't because you are white. You probably believe in God like a good little conservative. I believe in re-incarnation as that which one most fears especially when one has been so ungrateful to the Universe as to squander their good fortune in the present life by speaking ill of others less fortunate. I'm thinking of that scene in Shawshank redemption where Morgan Freeman shakes his head ruefully at the heartwrenching sound of Tim Robbins being violated somewhere in the facility... ...
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Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 07-30-2010 at 01:48 AM..
Executing murderers and child m0lestors is different than executing people for being gay or converting from islam.
The vast majority of murdered people are individuals you would cross the street to avoid if you encountered them alone. Since when do you care about justice for them? Child molesters... ok... kill them all... feel better? You've gotten rid of a thousand or so people, nasty people, but for all that, relatively harmless. Where does it end? Do you know the meaning of futility? What is up with you Saxons? First the British, next the Russians, now America wants to throw it all away by taking on Afghanistan in an unwinnable contest. Hubris.
If you could somehow incarcerate every single one of 13 million African American men it would not end violent crime. The time when you could incarcerate every Hispanic male has also passed. The Pentagon believes that negotiating with ideologically different nations is appeasment and takes a hardline approach that can be measured in body bags. So do most American Law Enforcement programs. How is that working for them?
All of dunks_galore's posts should be re-read as a body of insight as to why there is a problem with crime and what might be done about it. Jails, executions,... if they were effective I think we would know that after a couple hundred years of their use. Maybe we need to jail and/or execute all those with a hard line conservative outlook. In the resulting peace the general tension will go way down and I believe so will most violent crime.
Govt says : Okay the only place we can build it is the land that is a mile from your house
People: "NO! We dont want it in our neighborhood"
Govt says: There is no other land that we can use to build it. We can build it in that area; but the farmers don't want it there; we can build it there; but the new mall and school don't want it there. WHERE do you want us to build these 'prisons'?
People: We dont know, JUST build more
A clear case of NIMBY. I guess we COULD build more prisons on the moon...
Building more prisons was the fad some years ago. Not only was it "tough on crime," but for some towns it became economic development as they competed to host the next one. Good state jobs with benefits and security were the goal. With all the prison space they could lock up drunk drivers. The mission of the prison system expanded from warehousing (and hopefully rehabilitating) criminals to becoming de facto mental hospitals and lifetime care for small-time offenders. Very expensive to the taxpayers, some are even closing down.
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