Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
Mooseketeer,
I greatly respect your opinion on this, but I don't think you go far enough in condemning Islam, (as opposed to condemning Muslims.)
I certainly concede that not all Muslims adhere to each principle of Islam, and the principles of Islam are somewhat in dispute. Still, wouldn't you agree that the ideology of Islam is:
1. Sexist.
2. Homophobic.
3. Anti-democratic
4. Repressive of descent.
5. At odds with liberalism.
Because you admittedly know and like a lot of Muslims, it seems like you go soft on Islam. Not radical Islam, but straightforward, right-out-of-the-book, mainstream Islam.
The fact that Islam is a religion should not protect it from criticism and condemnation. It's a really bad idea and it's an idea that doesn't deserve to be protected.
|
Actually I do agree that a lot of Islamic precepts are archaic and some downright repellent. I guess what I am trying to say is that some Islamic countries are in many ways behind us on many issues such as human rights and women's roles/ sexual orientation.
I think it would be extremely disingenuous of me to say that I would like to be a Muslim woman in many countries .
However my point is that Islam like Christianity is very much due to interpretation and that the undigestible things we see about it are in many ways on paper no worse than precepts in the Bible. The Bible taken literally is an abhorent violent, intolerant quite evil book. Especially the OT which compares quite well with the Qur'an.
Interpretations of the Qur'an have been dividing Muslim Scholars since the begining of Islam and still do. One only has to look at all the different sects to see that to begin with there is no such thing as one Universal Islam.
Islam like Christianity has been the vehicle for great violence, evil and extremism as many ways Christianity was in its days. To me what we are seeing in most Muslim countries nowadays is more cultural than religious, religion having been highjacked by various groups with political and economic agendas. The many being exploited by the few , intellectually speaking.
The vast majority of Muslims around the world live what we would consider economically deprived backgrounds, few have access to decent education and social ills such as poverty and ignorance do tend to breed a lot retrogade attitudes.
We in the West have only had the benefits of universal human rights and political stability . The idea that a Black man could vote or be considered a full human being was still greatly debated in the 60s by millions of people in the US and post colonial societies. We have not got the best record when it comes to being civilised IMO.
Some Muslim countries are basically going through their own version of our own ignorant prejudices. The difference is that in the West we had two world wars which brought much freedom for women economically and thus socially, we became reasonably stable politically and our standards of living also rose greatly. Education became widely available to more people, as did access to outside influences and all this has led to a social revolution .
Some Muslim countries need to go through this to access the same "wisdom" we have.
I do decry fanatic Islam, I really, really do. It frightens the hell out of me actually . Religious fanaticism to me is an intellectual aberration and especially dangerous as one cannot reason with those for whom reason is a perfect stranger. It is simply not possible and as such is a form of wilful insanity.
What I am trying to convey though is that all those retrograde, archaic attitudes many Muslims hold are more the product of a culture and of a certain socio-economic climate than of the Qur'an.
Muslims on the whole have co-existed in reasonable peaceable terms with their non Muslim neighbours until fairly recently and were certainly no more bellicose and prejudiced than we ourselves from the Judeo-Christian side did.
Fundamentalism has rise for many reasons, economic, social and cultural , and the people being radicalised have not been given a chance in many ways to be otherwise.
But if you travel a lot in Muslim countries you will find that most people are actually low key Muslims and that often it is more a question of social adherence than anything else. To me the issue is how to change those societies and to stop a tiny group of opportunists taking over.
The majority of Muslims are peaceful, hard working , decent human beings with the same concerns we have about life, love and the Universe. I genuinely believe the problem lies in raising standards of living, access to education , political stability etc.. . The Qur'an is being used as a tool for propaganda and to whip people into a frenzy. It is simply a way for a small group of extremists and power hungry bastards to enslave the people.
The Qur'an in essence has become the opium of a lot of people. The herd mentality sadly often prevails and brainwashing does occur.
I certainly would never deny that.
Secular Islam if that is not too much a contradition in terms is possible as is Secular Christianity. It just needs the right conditions for it. In that respect we the West are completely going the wrong way with the way we deal with the issue because we are providing fresh new conditions to render this impossible.
I have met thousands and thousands of Muslims and I can honestly say I have never met one who treated me badly, or was rude or nasty to me when they found out I was an Atheist for example. I think they felt some sadness I did not recognise God but all were tolerant and accepting. And incredbily hospitable.
I have been in sticky situations , getting lost etc.. in Muslim countries and have never been threatened in any way and always treated with the greatest of respect.
Mysoginy, homophobia etc... are terrible things but if we are honest how much ahead are we of the "barbaric" Muslims. Not that many years ahead if history serves me right.
It is in our interest to ensure that certain countries can blossom the way we blossomed and evolved. We had to evolve quite sharply when only 50 years ago a black man could not drink from the same water fountain as a white man . If one looks simply at the disparity in jail terms given for the same offence in Blacks and Whites even now nowadays I think it is reasy to realise we too still have great leaps to go before we can call ourselves modern.....
Many people on this forum for example would presume to tell me what to do with my body as a woman and some have called for Gay /Transgender people to be killed . This is from Christians in a country with a relatively higher standard of living than most Muslim countries, and with general access to better education in most cases. In 2011.
Islam is not the enemy. The way is Islam is highjacked, distorted and abused is.
I can find as many inflammatory violent verses in the Bible as in the Qur'an and let's face it Christians did use the literal interpretation of the Bible to cut down a hell of a lot of non Christians. Using God as a shield of self righteousness.
When religion becomes an organised social movement then you are always going to have a problem in my opinion especially with poverty and social exclusion being rife.
If people stuck to private faith and an introspective relationship with their Gods we would not have quite the same level of sectarianism.
In many ways we the West abuse, kill and maim far more than certain Islamic theocracies ( who by the way tend to abuse mostly their own people rather than us - the average Muslim is more victim than tortionnary ) by the way we do business and consume. The difference is we kill remotely and by stealth. Through unbridled greed and selfishness. Most of us will have been responsible for human suffering on an appalling scale simply because of our consumer choices.
Economic terrorism should be a crime as much as actual terrorism. It is no more benevolent and no more discriminating.
Ask the people in the Niger Delta about Shell and they'll have a few things to say about that. We exploit, diminish other human beings, deny them access to food, water, decent living conditions simply so we can save a few bucks and Mr Walmart can reap higher profits. Exactly what is the difference between killing thousands in the Twin towers and killing thousands for Oil ? (Is it because 9/11 happened on American soil and as such was seen as being a slap in the face . Is it that Western lives are seen as being of more value ? I think it is)
None. Both sets of victims are innocent and both die. A life is a life.
It is hard for us to hold the high moral ground when we look at our own history and current record on human rights and social justice.
Yes some Islamic countries are stuck in the middle ages. So were we until pretty recently and in many ways still are.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
