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Old 11-10-2010, 09:25 AM
 
Location: California
11,466 posts, read 19,355,649 times
Reputation: 12713

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I think this will be my last post on this topic, I’m pretty sure it's all been covered. I will give my observations of what I believe is the highlights of this thread.

1. Some People seem to think a 2 year old should be able to make his own decisions and do whatever he wants even if it is not the best for him

2. Some People seem to think (although no one criticized the child) that if you don't agree you are intolerant

3. Some People want everyone to tolerate others strange behavior.

4. Some People seem to like little boys dressed as girls.

This doesn’t matter to me because I’ve been past raising my Son for a good amount of time and he turned out great but I do have an opinion.
If someone wants to dress their 2 year old little boy as a girl that’s their choice not the child’s, a child is not mentally developed enough to make that type of decision he does not understand the repercussions that decision can bring with it..
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:42 PM
 
Location: central Oregon
1,909 posts, read 2,539,472 times
Reputation: 2493
[quote=Mr. Joshua;16598104]
Quote:

You have major trouble with logic. Let me ask you this: Does today's men's fashion include frilly dresses?



About a year ago my 2 year-old nephew lobbed a knife at his mother at the dinner table. But of course he was simply expressing himself, to squash that creativity would surely be tragic. Agreed tulani?
It is you who is misunderstanding. I posted in response to you saying that men have dressed the way they dress today for at least ten thousand years. They haven't always dressed this way.
Not too much frills in men's clothes these days, but men who are Princess Boys probably love frills.

See quote below to answer your second question.
I can't believe you even said this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMcQ LV View Post
You actually equate "lobbing a knife" to choosing a different wardrobe? Good God, man! Use your brain for more than head filler. Throwing a knife (or other table utensil) is dangerous! What is dangerous about wearing a dress instead of pants and shirt?
Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Joshua View Post
May I ask the women on the board whether they feel their creativity or girlishness is being suppressed when they wear pants or a man's shirt. And do they feel that they will be psychologically damaged if they had to wear these clothes for an extended period of time.
You have this backwards. Creativity increases when we are allowed to dress as we see fit. Mom putting me in boy clothes did not harm me at all. (I understand the poster who said mom bought her pants in the boys department... my mom did too.) There is NO psychological damage done to either gender due to wearing clothes mainly for the opposite sex.
How silly to even think this.
I have wide feet and only wear men's sneakers. Have for over thirty years. Not one bit of emotional damage in all those years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roaddog View Post
I think this will be my last post on this topic, I’m pretty sure it's all been covered. I will give my observations of what I believe is the highlights of this thread.

1. Some People seem to think a 2 year old should be able to make his own decisions and do whatever he wants even if it is not the best for him

2. Some People seem to think (although no one criticized the child) that if you don't agree you are intolerant

3. Some People want everyone to tolerate others strange behavior.

4. Some People seem to like little boys dressed as girls.

This doesn’t matter to me because I’ve been past raising my Son for a good amount of time and he turned out great but I do have an opinion.
If someone wants to dress their 2 year old little boy as a girl that’s their choice not the child’s, a child is not mentally developed enough to make that type of decision he does not understand the repercussions that decision can bring with it..
1. Some people think a two year old should make his own decisions when it comes to minor things like what to wear. Also, I think most rational parents would make sure their child was dressed appropriately for the weather.
2. Some people think it's abuse to let children choose their own style. This is what we are arguing against. It is not abuse.
3. Just like we'd like everyone to tolerate our physical differences, we'd like everyone to tolerate ALL our differences. Don't like what someone does or wears? Too bad, live with it, it is THEIR life and not yours. No one is saying you have to like it or agree with it; just keep your nasty thoughts to yourself. Your (in general and not picking out just you) intolerant attitude is what is wrong with this thread.
4. Some people really don't care WHAT other people's children wear. As long as the child is dressed for the weather then what is the problem?
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 59,799,372 times
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I am reminded of the Johnny Cash song, "A Boy Named Sue".

Some dress boys as girls, some girls as boys and others dress 10 yr old girls as Vegas call girls.

All is kind of weird and maybe not very good for the kids.
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:59 PM
 
30 posts, read 22,355 times
Reputation: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roaddog View Post

Some People seem to think a 2 year old should be able to make his own decisions and do whatever he wants even if it is not the best for him
No one here said a 2 year old should be able to do whatever they want.
No one is advocating that allowing a kid to play with knives and eat junk food all day and start fires in the living room is just fine.

I don't see how allowing a boy to wear a dress equates with doing "whatever they want". Its not black and white.
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:13 PM
 
Location: California
11,466 posts, read 19,355,649 times
Reputation: 12713
I remember when my Niece was sending her 6-year-old son to school wearing girl’s pants and yeah he got laughed at and got some hurt feelings. Did he want to wear those pants? He didn’t care because that’s what his mom gave him to wear, his Great Grandmother found out and bought him jeans and yes then he cared about what he was wearing.

My brother in-law dressed his son in a suit for the first grade, the kid didn’t care until the first day and the other kids teased the heck out of him to the point of the school calling a meeting to explain being out of place and the emotions that go with it.

We are not talking dress up many kids play that and it’s fine, we are talking parents dressing a boy as a girl 24/7 and putting him in emotional and possible physical harm.

Personally nobody I’ve asked other than here think it’s cute, normal or even ok.

I would love to see one of you who think boy's dressed as girl's is fine to send one of your boy's to school dressed as a girl and see what it does to them.
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:17 PM
 
320 posts, read 290,488 times
Reputation: 137
Why would a mother emberrass her son like that?
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:30 PM
 
1,350 posts, read 2,300,978 times
Reputation: 960
16th-late 19th century tradition for young boys called breeching.

This is a photo of a young BOY from an upperclass home who no doubt became a strong MAN


Wikipedia.com
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:30 PM
 
14,917 posts, read 13,105,768 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Joshua View Post
I can only assume by this paragraph that you either have intimate, first hand experience with gender identity disorder or you are a psychologist. So for the purpose of full disclosure would you mind telling us which one applies to you.
Nope - neither. If you really want full disclosure, here's my story (as it relates to this issue):

I've never had any gender identity issues. I have a penis, and I've always been a very close reflection of our cultural standard of masculinity (currently as a 28 year old adult and as a child). I'm a man and have never even remotely felt otherwise. I love the outdoors - I'm an avid skier, camper, and hiker. You'll never find a more rabid or dedicated sports fan (Go Broncos, Nuggets, Avs and Rockies). I love ragging on women and the very strange things they do. And on and on and on.

I'm not a psychologist - I'm a chemist (thinking about law school though). I like to think of myself as an intellectual, and I've always surrounded myself with thoughtful, intelligent, professional (meaning advanced degree) people. I know several psychologists (earlier this year I spent a week copy editing my friend Amanda's psychology Ph.D. dissertation), and we regularly discuss and argue about a whole range of things. I briefly talked to two them about this particular topic over the last two days.

That said, I do know what it's like to be different in a society that largely doesn't accept differences. I'm gay. As a gay kid I was pretty lucky though. I had relatively accepting parents growing up (they're wonderfully accepting and supportive now). At 17 when I told my parents I was gay, my dad didn't react violently but instead just wanted me to see a doctor so I could get "fixed". I was never picked on or bullied at school - I was salutatorian of my high school class and a star athlete (I still hold swimming state records and was an All State runner).

Even given that, as a kid I considered myself an outcast. I tormented myself about my sexuality from 10-17. My last thought before going to bed every night for 7 years was hoping that I'd wake up "normal". I didn't have many "normal" friends. I saw how **** (the more feminine boys - whether gay or not) were tormented at school and I figured the best way to avoid such a fate was to never be discovered for who I actually was - and that the best way to never be discovered was to not interact with the "normal", or popular crowd. There came a point for me when I could no longer keep up the charade - it had to end. I was 17 and off at college and I either had to acknowledge and seek acceptance for my "difference", or I had to kill myself. I strongly considered both. If you ask any out gay person my age or older you'll find that essentially all of us at some point in our youth at least thought about suicide as a way out.

My parents have told me they first suspected I was gay when I was 6. Finding my Playgirl stash at 11 (I stole them from the local mall starting at age 10) and the gay porn I downloaded off the computer at 14 confirmed it. I was punished for those things - as I should have been for the stealing - but I was also told that my thinking was wrong; that it's wrong for men to be sexually attracted to men. Today, asking my dad why he said that, he tells me he never actually believed that homosexually was wrong (he's an atheist), he just knew that society didn't accept it and that he was trying to protect me by trying to get me to change. It didn't protect me. All my 11 year old mind processed was that my parents didn't love me. It only made me hate myself more.

Looking back, I wish to God my parents had told me "son, we know you're different, we know you're gay. We accept it and we love for who you are. If you want to come out at school we'll support you. If you want to keep it a secret we'll support you too". My parents have told me many times since that not doing just that is their biggest regret, not as parents, but in their lives period.

And I had it easy - lol. I can't imagine (well, I can - I know dozens of people who were in these situations) growing up as a "different" kid who could not hide his difference. I was a boy attracted to other boys. That's pretty easy to hide from classmates. I imagine it's impossible for a naturally feminine boy (princess boy) or a naturally masculine girl (tomboy) to hid that. I also can't imagine growing up in a truly close-minded, intolerant household. I've heard so many horror stories of 14 year old boys being thrown out of their house at gunpoint because they were discovered as gay by their parents (half of all homeless teens in the US are gay). Can you imagine being a kid in both those situations?




Enough of my story - back to this kid. Who knows if this kid is "different". Like has been pointed out many times (including by me) this could very easily just be a phase and he'll outgrow it tomorrow. It's also possible this is an expression of his true self, of his true personality. It's possible (even likely) that he is a feminine male - and there is NOTHING INHERENTLY WRONG WITH THAT.

And again, I understand the practical situation. If it is just a phase, he'll grow out of it. What's the harm in allowing him a perfectly harmless phase for however long it lasts? However, if he really is a feminine boy, then his parents are pretty much in a lose-lose situation. If this really is his true personality, then it's going to shine through no matter if his parents accept and encourage it, or reject and try to suppress and change it. His parents realize this - that's why they are being proactive by writing this book and trying to put it into his school. For that, I think they deserve some sort of parent of the year award.

The worse case scenario for this boy is that he is a feminine male and is both rejected at home by his parents and picked on at school because he can't hide who he is. I bet that his parents pray every night that this is just a phase and when they wake up tomorrow their son has outgrown it. However, if it's not and this is his true self, then he's going to be picked on to some degree, but at least let his home be a sanctuary of love and acceptance.

I can tell you, with 100% certainly, that if he's truly a feminine boy and his parents send him the message that he is wrong, incorrect, and in need of changing, then he will grow up hating himself and feeling unloved by his own family. It doesn't matter if that message is truly what his parents believe or if they're sending it only in an effort to protect him from the "cruel world". Either way, it's just as damaging.

Last edited by hammertime33; 11-10-2010 at 03:03 PM..
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:12 PM
 
Location: California
11,466 posts, read 19,355,649 times
Reputation: 12713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prytania View Post
16th-late 19th century tradition for young boys called breeching.

This is a photo of a young BOY from an upperclass home who no doubt became a strong MAN


Wikipedia.com
Breeching was when the child was of age for his trousers. I don’t see where it has anything to do with this boy we are not in the 16th or 19th century, people did this because children grew so fast and toilet training not because they were pretty little boys.

This child is not wearing a dress because of growth or toilet training he is wearing a dress because his parents buy them for him and encourage his behavior

I’ve never seen a boy wearing a dress in school myself..
Can you prove he grew up to be a strong man? I would like to see the link to it. You do understand there has always been wussies in all time periods.
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:37 PM
 
1,350 posts, read 2,300,978 times
Reputation: 960
Meh. Just meh, who cares?

I am so sick of someone judging someone else for something that isn't a big deal. Masculinity is not fragile...
PLUS it was Halloween...
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