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Old 02-16-2011, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Barrington, IL area
1,594 posts, read 3,058,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadex View Post
I dont know anyone against helping a sick child or senior or handicap person. The problem comes when it comes to able body adults
So if they are protecting life, they should also be able support it, correct?
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:36 PM
 
Location: South Fla
9,644 posts, read 9,850,172 times
Reputation: 1942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantasy Tokoro View Post
Not particularly.

If one was capable of being a parent, they'd be capable of doing it with or without marriage.

And honestly, it's not my problem if someone else uses it as birth control. Do I like it? No. I think that it's stupid to have to spend 300+ on "birth control" when one could easily just use the pill and condoms responsibly.

(And if they still get pregnant after that, then by all means, I see no reason NOT to get an abortion if they don't want the child).

Personally, after the 7th abortion, I believe they should just scoop all that stuff out anyways.
Heck if we waited till everyone met a certain standard to have a child. We wouldnt have many people in this world.

I see the reason because they are killing a human life. People end up in prison for that
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
8,346 posts, read 7,048,492 times
Reputation: 2874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadex View Post
Heck if we waited till everyone met a certain standard to have a child. We wouldnt have many people in this world.

I see the reason because they are killing a human life. People end up in prison for that
And I find that the woman who is incubating said human life has say over the space that she's renting out to the baby.
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:41 PM
 
29,981 posts, read 42,949,243 times
Reputation: 12828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill61 View Post
That view works perfectly well in an idealized world where schools are allowed to teach proper sex education and school nurses are allowed to make condoms available to students.

Unfortunately, teenagers will be sexually active, whether we'd like to acknowledge that or not. And unfortunately, Republicans have long been the ones fighting against many of the common-sense measures that would both educate and protect teenagers from having unwanted pregnancies occur in the first place.
I really don't think that arguement has applied in recent years. There is a vast difference between the parties as to what qualifies as "proper" sex education. Is teaching first and second graders how to appy condoms to a banana proper sex ed. or pushing the homosexual agenda in elementary school proper sex ed.? I don't think so, YMMV.

Sorry, this ad linked in the OP is nothing other than partisan politics/smear campaign as usual.
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Up in the air
19,112 posts, read 30,640,756 times
Reputation: 16395
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourD View Post
Get your tubes tied or something if you want to have sex but don't want kids. It's not the tax payer's problem, it's their OWN problem to deal with. When you make a choice there are consequences for that choice, you own the responsibility of accepting the outcomes. That's all the abortion argument is mainly about, using tax money.
So you don't really care about 'saving the unborn', it's all about money. Gotcha.

Getting your tubes tied isn't 100% either, ya know. Neither is getting a vasectomy.

Yes, there are consequences for my choices, and I do own the responsibility. If I were to get pregnant at this point in my life, the responsible choice FOR ME would be to have an abortion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadex View Post
Maybe to you its not killing a child. To many it is and it is emotional to many and you dont really get to take that from people.

Suffer for the rest of their lives? That isnt emotional though is it? Wonder if your parents feel like they are suffering all their life?

Who is saying anything about married couples not having sex? Married couples should be more prepared and stable to have a child
And who is forcing anyone to have an abortion? You're saying I shouldn't have that choice because someone, somewhere feels emotional over fetuses? YOU are trying to take away the choice, not me.

Yes, my parents suffered for many years after having me. They were very young and my Mom's birth control failed, along with that I have a genetic disorder that bankrupted them...twice. And before you ask, I wouldn't know if I had been aborted or not so it has no bearing on whether or not I'm 'happy' I'm here today.

You ARE saying married couples shouldn't have sex. Not all married couples want or desire children, therefore they shouldn't be having sex, right?
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Old 02-16-2011, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
7,835 posts, read 8,443,092 times
Reputation: 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophiasmommy View Post

Abortion is murder. Anyone who is "pro choice" supports murder as a choice.
I respect your position that a fetus is the beginning of life, and the taking of that life is morally offensive to you. I might even be persuaded that a fetus is the beginning of a life, even if it's not viable. And I empathize with the heartbreak you must feel in believing that thousands of potential children are being legally killed in this country every year. It actually breaks my heart, too, that not all potential children are wanted. It would be a wonderful world if every pregnancy was looked upon as a joyous occasion.

But our laws recognize that there are, indeed, times when a person can lawfully take the life of another, including a fully living, breathing, walking, talking human being. One of the exceptions to the killing of another not being murder, is self-defense. I trust you agree with that exception. No one who is defending their own life or safety should be found guilty of the crime of murder.

Pregnancy at any age, even in these medically technological times, can actually pose many serious health risks, all the way up to and including death of the woman (I happen to have a personal experience with this, as my first cousin nearly died from an amniotic fluid embolism during childbirth, then spent over a week in a coma. The baby did die, btw.).

Here is a list of some of the more serious potential side affects and risks of pregnancy:

High blood pressure
Hypothyroidism
Cholestasis of Pregnancy (a common liver disease that only happens in pregnancy)
Hyperemesis Gravidarum
Hysterectomy
Molar Pregnancy
Placenta Accreta
Placental Abruption
Toxoplasmosis
Listeria (pregnant women are 20 times more likely to become infected than non-pregnant healthy adults)
Pelvic floor disorder
HELLP Syndrome (Hemolysis (breakdown of red blood cells), Elevated liver enzymes, Low platelets counts (platelets help the blood clot))
Loss of dental and bone calcium
Hyperemesis gravidarum
Temporary and permanent injury to back
Dropped (prolapsed) uterus
Pre-eclampsia
Eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
Gestational diabetes
Placenta previa
Anemia
Thrombocytopenic purpura
Embolism (blood clots - can lead to death)
Diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
Mitral valve stenosis
Ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
Broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
Hemorrhage
Severe post-partum depression and psychosis
Coronary and cardiovascular disease
Magnesium toxicity
Severe hypoxemia/acidosis
Increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
Malignant Arrhythmia
Circulatory collapse
Placental abruption
Obstetric fistula
Miscarriage
Future infertility
Permanent disability
Heart attack
Stroke
Death


When a person seeks medical attention for any condition, their doctor will (or should) explain all the risks associated with that condition.

I believe that, armed with a list of these potential complications of carrying a fetus to full term, a pregnant woman, like anyone else whose life is potentially being threatened, should be able to make a decision to protect herself from potential harm. Sadly, this results in some potential future humans from being able to have a future life, just as it does those living, breathing, walking, talking humans who are putting a person's life at risk.

Now, you may say that the living, breathing, walking, talking person is obviously committing some bad act, whereas the fetus is an "innocent," and while there is some degree of truth to that distinction, that truth doesn't negate the fact that a fetus, even if only by virtue of its mere existence, does potentially put the woman's life at risk.

Those of us who are Pro-Women's Choice, aren't advocating murder. We're saying that the government should not be allowed to force women to endure the very serious potential risks associated with pregnancy. Those risks must be weighed by the woman herself, in conjunction with her doctor, and possibly her family and/or support system.

Edited to add: In case you doubt the prevalence of such occurrences that can lead to the death of the woman during pregnancy, I give you the following statistics:
A total of 1.7 million women a year, one-third of all pregnant women in the [United States], suffer from pregnancy-related complications.

The report also revealed that severe pregnancy-related complications that nearly cause death -- known as "near misses" -- are rising at an alarming rate, increasing by 25 percent since 1998.

. . .

With a lifetime risk of maternal deaths that is greater than in 40 other countries, including virtually all industrialized nations, the USA has failed to reverse the two-decade upward trend in preventable maternal deaths, despite pledges to do so.
USA urged to confront shocking maternal mortality rate | Amnesty International

I do see your perspective. I'm hoping you can see mine, as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal View Post

I really don't think that arguement has applied in recent years. There is a vast difference between the parties as to what qualifies as "proper" sex education. Is teaching first and second graders how to appy condoms to a banana proper sex ed. or pushing the homosexual agenda in elementary school proper sex ed.? I don't think so, YMMV.
The things you allege aren't actually happening. At best, they're blown-out-of-proportion, at worst, they're outright lies.

Last edited by Jill61; 02-16-2011 at 03:48 PM..
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Old 02-16-2011, 03:41 PM
 
10 posts, read 4,511 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadex View Post
Never said I am a perfect saint. If that were the case I would have not ended up homeless or without insurance. But I am not ashamed of it. I dont claim to be perfect. I simply claim to take responsibility for my choices.

I cant control a party or anyone else but myself. So that doesnt fly here
What im getting at here is no one can be 100% responsible for their actions.
This is something conservatives can not fathom
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Old 02-16-2011, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,644 posts, read 26,398,078 times
Reputation: 12656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strel View Post
And I might agree with you.

Right up to the point where you grant the State power to make medical and reproductive decisions for people.

And then I won't.

And developing children prior to birth are not "people" because five guys declared them to be "unpersons"?

By what authority did the state make that medical and reproductive decision?

Why is that within bounds but not any other powers the state might assume?
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Old 02-16-2011, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Between Seattle and Portland
1,266 posts, read 3,224,637 times
Reputation: 1526
Excellent post, Jill61! It's so refreshing to see reasonableness applied so well to an argument that will never be resolved.

NO ONE should ever be able to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her own body.

Good for you, Lisa Edelstein!
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Old 02-16-2011, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Camberville
15,866 posts, read 21,455,012 times
Reputation: 28216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophiasmommy View Post
Abortion is murder. Anyone who is "pro choice" supports murder as a choice.
I hope Sophia is never raped and impregnated due to the rape. Or makes a poor decision as a 12 or 13 year old and ends up pregnant. Or is like me, 23 and diagnosed with cancer during prime childbearing years.

Yesterday when I went for one of my tests, there was another young woman with a similar cancer with her husband. She was 21, just married to a marine, and pregnant. She was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma the day after I was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma. She will need to have an abortion in order to start treatment. Many would argue that since she theoretically would be worse but still alive at the end of pregnancy, then she should just wait to start treatment.

Birth control fails. Married couples (particularly here in Boston) struggle to afford a 1 bedroom apartment on a combined income of 80K. Most of my friends and coworkers had to wait until their mid 30s to even THINK about having children because of the cost of living. Should they wait 15 years to have sex while married because they would have an abortion if they got pregnant?
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