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Your entire argument falls completely apart on this one fact that you have consistently ignored.
They HAD a way out.
They TOOK that way out.
The rest of your crap is just a rewriting of history, a distorted version of reality, ignorance of the law and/or anti-liberal ranting not worth the spittle you probably spewed on the screen while typing it. Buh-bye.
So then let's agree to disagree and revert to someone that was there.
Quote:
ELLI PEARSON: Well, we were protesting together, and the riot cops came at us, and we linked arms and sat down peacefully to protest their presence on our campus. And at one point, they were—we had encircled them, and they were trying to leave, and they were trying to clear a path. And so, we sat down, linked arms, and said that if they wanted to clear the path, they would have to go through us. But we were on the ground, you know, heads down. And all I could see was people telling me to cover my head, protect myself, and put my head down. And the next thing I know, I was pepper-sprayed.
So then let's agree to disagree and revert to someone that was there.
ELLI PEARSON: "Well, we were protesting together, and the riot cops came at us, and we linked arms and sat down peacefully to protest their presence on our campus. And at one point, they were—we had encircled them, and they were trying to leave, and they were trying to clear a path. And so, we sat down, linked arms, and said that if they wanted to clear the path, they would have to go through us. But we were on the ground, you know, heads down. And all I could see was people telling me to cover my head, protect myself, and put my head down."
... Then one of the officers STEPPED OVER US WHILE WE WERE SITTING ON THE GROUND, CLEARLY PROVING THAT THEY WERE NOT "TRAPPED" ...
ELLI PEARSON: "And the next thing I know, I was pepper-sprayed."
Actually, it doesn't matter how much warning they gave. Pepper spray shouldn't be used on peaceful protesters. The cops would have been better off ignoring the circle kids, or at most simply unlinking them and arresting them, which is what police normally do.
I always find it odd that the "small government" types think it's okay for cops to do whatever they wish, and that citizens have no rights that hold against them.
I am a vocal critic of police misconduct, but I also reject this nonsense that police are required to go to extremes to tiptoe around the sensitivities of those who willfully disregard police orders and create confrontational situations.
If what I understand is true, the police asked them to leave. It's not an unreasonable request. The students were protesting, which is their right to do, but they were also being disruptive to other members of the public, which isn't necessarily within their rights. The police asked them to leave, and they refused.
At that point, the question becomes one of what to do next. I don't believe that the police are under any obligation to just wait it out for hours and hours anymore than I believe that they are under an obligation to let a speeding motorist keep driving until he runs out of gas. At some point, the law is the law and law enforcement officials have the right to compel compliance or face consequences for failing to do so. I accept, as do most other rational people of various political leanings, that ignoring an officer who is legitimately enforcing the law has consequences, which can include the use of physical force.
The argument might be that pepper spray is excessive, and that it injures people. Students can be injured with or without pepper spray. They could have been injured if they had been physically apprehended. Police take-downs don't always go as planned. Eyes that sting for 15 minutes are probably better than going to the ER for a broken collarbone due to a hard take-down.
There really are cases of police brutality -- I get that. And I'm sure it happens more than I realize, and it needs to be confronted. But I'm also annoyed when a bunch of idiots act like jackasses and expect no consequences. And the outrage we have now should be reserved for the times when a SWAT team goes in and kills a former Iraqi vet without cause, not some freeloaders who want to make it onto YouTube.
I am a vocal critic of police misconduct, but I also reject this nonsense that police are required to go to extremes to tiptoe around the sensitivities of those who willfully disregard police orders and create confrontational situations.
If what I understand is true, the police asked them to leave. It's not an unreasonable request. The students were protesting, which is their right to do, but they were also being disruptive to other members of the public, which isn't necessarily within their rights. The police asked them to leave, and they refused.
At that point, the question becomes one of what to do next. I don't believe that the police are under any obligation to just wait it out for hours and hours anymore than I believe that they are under an obligation to let a speeding motorist keep driving until he runs out of gas. At some point, the law is the law and law enforcement officials have the right to compel compliance or face consequences for failing to do so. I accept, as do most other rational people of various political leanings, that ignoring an officer who is legitimately enforcing the law has consequences, which can include the use of physical force.
The argument might be that pepper spray is excessive, and that it injures people. Students can be injured with or without pepper spray. They could have been injured if they had been physically apprehended. Police take-downs don't always go as planned. Eyes that sting for 15 minutes are probably better than going to the ER for a broken collarbone due to a hard take-down.
There really are cases of police brutality -- I get that. And I'm sure it happens more than I realize, and it needs to be confronted. But I'm also annoyed when a bunch of idiots act like jackasses and expect no consequences. And the outrage we have now should be reserved for the times when a SWAT team goes in and kills a former Iraqi vet without cause, not some freeloaders who want to make it onto YouTube.
Yet another one who doesn't get it.
The police were not obligated to wait them out.
The police had a right to compel compliance with the request to disperse.
Just because people can be injured with the use of lesser force, doesn't provide cover for using more force than is warranted under the law.
Young establishes that if police "could have feasibly employed less intrusive measures prior to [the] use of force [it] suggests that the government's interest in the use of significant force was extremely limited, if not altogether non-existent."
Young establishes that pepper spray does significantly more than merely cause some burning for 15 minutes. "Pepper spray “is designed to cause intense pain,” ... [and we affirm the] district court finding that pepper spray is a “dangerous weapon” under the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines and describing trial evidence that pepper spray causes “extreme pain” and is “capable of causing ‘protracted impairment of a function of a bodily organ’ “ as well as lifelong health problems such as asthma."
Young establishes through the testimony of a police practices expert, that pepper spray "should only be generally used as a defensive weapon and must never be used to intimidate a person or retaliate against an individual."
I swear to G-d I don't know why this is so damn hard to grasp.
If they had wanted to, all they'd have had to do is grab the little sh**'s arms and slap cuffs on them and be done with it. If the students had started actively resisting or started a riot, then the police may have been justified in escalating force.
Under the circumstances as they were, they did not have that authority.
The Students Were NOT Resisting ARREST. They were not placed under arrest. At no time did any officer say, "I'm placing you under arrest. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say or do can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to be represented by an attorney and have that attorney with you during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights as I have read them to you?"
NOT. UNDER. ARREST.
THEREFORE:
NOT. RESISTING. ARREST.
Defying a lawful order to disperse? YES!
Resisting arrest? NO, NO, and one last time, NO! Someone still doesn't comprehend that a court has ruled in Young v. The County of Los Angeles that a person sitting on the ground, having committed a minor crime, and who was not actively posing the threat of harm to police or others, cannot be pepper sprayed.
The police don't have to give you a miranda warning when placing you under arrest - once again, what is your legal background? Because you really don't seem to understand what you're talking about.
The USSC has repeatedly stated that police use of force is highly fact specific - you have taken a single case and without really understanding law enforcement procedure or the facts in issue, assume the Young case applies here in a particular way. It isn't that simple.
This is why I keep asking for your legal background - because you keep saying things (perhaps poorly worded, but sometimes not) that does not correspond to the law. The fact that you think the police have to read you the Miranda warning is something any first year C.J major would know isn't true at all.
Also, 10 of them were arrested - I provided the newspaper article stating as much, but since your entire argument is predicated on facts you wish to imagine out of thin air, I suspect there's not much more to be done here.
ELLI PEARSON: "Well, we were protesting together, and the riot cops came at us, and we linked arms and sat down peacefully to protest their presence on our campus. And at one point, they were—we had encircled them, and they were trying to leave, and they were trying to clear a path. And so, we sat down, linked arms, and said that if they wanted to clear the path, they would have to go through us. But we were on the ground, you know, heads down. And all I could see was people telling me to cover my head, protect myself, and put my head down."
... Then one of the officers STEPPED OVER US WHILE WE WERE SITTING ON THE GROUND, CLEARLY PROVING THAT THEY WERE NOT "TRAPPED" ...
ELLI PEARSON: "And the next thing I know, I was pepper-sprayed."
The police don't have to give you a miranda warning when placing you under arrest - once again, what is your legal background? Because you really don't seem to understand what you're talking about.
The USSC has repeatedly stated that police use of force is highly fact specific - you have taken a single case and without really understanding law enforcement procedure or the facts in issue, assume the Young case applies here in a particular way. It isn't that simple.
This is why I keep asking for your legal background - because you keep saying things (perhaps poorly worded, but sometimes not) that does not correspond to the law. The fact that you think the police have to read you the Miranda warning is something any first year C.J major would know isn't true at all.
Also, 10 of them were arrested - I provided the newspaper article stating as much, but since your entire argument is predicated on facts you wish to imagine out of thin air, I suspect there's not much more to be done here.
Look dude, those kids who were sitting in that circle were not at any point prior to being pepper sprayed, placed under arrest.
PERIOD.
Those kids. Not some 10 random other kids, but those kids.
NOT. PLACED. UNDER. ARREST.
You cannot be resisting a non-existent thing.
We have video with audio of every moment leading up to the pepper spraying and not once, ever, at any time, do any officers ever say they are placing any of those seated kids under arrest.
At no time did any of those officers ever attempt to put anyone under arrest with the use of handcuffs or any other type of restraint.
They weren't read any rights.
They weren't anything related to being under arrest.
I don't know why this has to be explained to you over and over and over and OVER again in 27 different ways.
THOSE. SEATED. KIDS. WERE. NOT. PLACED. UNDER. ARREST. PRIOR. TO. POLICE. RESORTING. TO. THE. USE. OF. PEPPER. SPRAY.
And the kids could have linked d!@ks for all it matters - the officers WERE. NOT. TRAPPED. BECAUSE. THEY. EASILY. STEPPED. OVER. THE. SEATED. KIDS.
Jesus freaking Christ what is the matter with you people?
Look dude, those kids who were sitting in that circle were not at any point prior to being pepper sprayed, placed under arrest.
PERIOD.
Those kids. Not some 10 random other kids, but those kids.
NOT. PLACED. UNDER. ARREST.
You cannot be resisting a non-existent thing.
We have video with audio of every moment leading up to the pepper spraying and not once, ever, at any time, do any officers ever say they are placing any of those seated kids under arrest.
At no time did any of those officers ever attempt to put anyone under arrest with the use of handcuffs or any other type of restraint.
They weren't read any rights.
They weren't anything related to being under arrest.
I don't know why this has to be explained to you over and over and over and OVER again in 27 different ways.
THOSE. SEATED. KIDS. WERE. NOT. PLACED. UNDER. ARREST. PRIOR. TO. POLICE. RESORTING. TO. THE. USE. OF. PEPPER. SPRAY.
And the kids could have linked d!@ks for all it matters - the officers WERE. NOT. TRAPPED. BECAUSE. THEY. EASILY. STEPPED. OVER. THE. SEATED. KIDS.
Jesus freaking Christ what is the matter with you people?
Jesus' Christ doesn't exist which is exactly where your argument lies.
Look dude, those kids who were sitting in that circle were not at any point prior to being pepper sprayed, placed under arrest.
PERIOD.
Those kids. Not some 10 random other kids, but those kids.
NOT. PLACED. UNDER. ARREST.
You cannot be resisting a non-existent thing.
We have video with audio of every moment leading up to the pepper spraying and not once, ever, at any time, do any officers ever say they are placing any of those seated kids under arrest.
At no time did any of those officers ever attempt to put anyone under arrest with the use of handcuffs or any other type of restraint.
They weren't read any rights.
They weren't anything related to being under arrest.
I don't know why this has to be explained to you over and over and over and OVER again in 27 different ways.
THOSE. SEATED. KIDS. WERE. NOT. PLACED. UNDER. ARREST. PRIOR. TO. POLICE. RESORTING. TO. THE. USE. OF. PEPPER. SPRAY.
And the kids could have linked d!@ks for all it matters - the officers WERE. NOT. TRAPPED. BECAUSE. THEY. EASILY. STEPPED. OVER. THE. SEATED. KIDS.
Jesus freaking Christ what is the matter with you people?
Try not taking my Lord and savior's name in vain, will ya? We don't say that about Allah or Muhammed, or about Buddha for that matter, why Jesus?
The police are shown politely giving individual warnings of what was to come if the protesters did not move as commanded. What else were the police supposed to do? The protesters would not let the officers leave. They defied the orders which were within the law.
Protesters should be allowed to protest; but not block other peoples' passage.
I think the police were well within the law. As a law abiding citizen, I like to think that as long as they are acting within the written law, the police are in charge; not some group of people I may not agree with.
According to the chancellor at UCD, she told the police not to use force to remove the students so as to avoid another Berkeley.
Either the police should be fired and tried for assault and battery, or the chancellor should admit she's a bald-faced liar and resign to face a civil suit. Which will it be?
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