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Originally Posted by gallowsCalibrator
Is it the school's fault or the parent/child combo's fault? I ensure my daughter gets 10-12 hours of sleep per night, she's used to that schedule, and she (as a six year old) wakes up energized on her own and gets herself dressed before even my husband or myself wakes up. If it wasn't for the milk being above her reach and in glass bottles, she'd probably try fixing her own breakfast.
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Then you do ensure your child gets the proper amount of sleep ... that's good. And that also tells me that you and your husband obviously enjoy schedules that allow you to do that. But I see a math problem here ... if bedtime is 9:00 pm .... your child cannot possibly get 12 hours of sleep, and attend school at the standard hour that most schools operate. So, perhaps you should stick to the 10 hour story .... that's the only one that works.
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Originally Posted by gallowsCalibrator
Why shouldn't kids be treated more and more like adults as they get older? Coddling them until they're 18 or 25 isn't going to produce well-balanced adults. It'll produce adults with the mindsets of children.
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I honestly can't fathom the idea that ensuring kids get the proper rest, and attending to other matters that contribute to their physical and mental well being could be mistaken for "coddling". When I was growing up, that was just a sign of good raising.
But no, I don't think kids should be treated like adults, because they aren't adults. Their needs are different, and they should not be forced to cope with strenuous demands unsuitable for their age. As an older adult, I can barely manage more than 6 hours of sleep, and my schedule is as flexible as I want it to be ... I just can't sleep more than 6 hours. But a kid cannot operate on that little sleep .... well, they can ... but it's not good for them. I also don't think 10 year olds should have a Martini to take the edge off before bed, either.
Of course , I'm being facetious .... I don't suspect that you'd favor cocktails for children either .. I'm just illustrating the obvious flaw in your reasoning.
And this isn't really a subjective opinion, but a scientific one. There are things going on with children ... like growing ... that places greater demands on their minds and bodies, and much of the maintenance of that development takes place while sleeping. When that sleep is interrupted or cut short, so too are those processes affected negatively.
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Originally Posted by gallowsCalibrator
I'm already seeing this in my generation - people in their mid 20's incapable of holding down a steady job at anyplace more than retail or fast food because they lack skillsets or drive. They don't want to wake up early to be at work about 830 or 9 in the morning. They'd rather stay up all night, sleep in until noon, then work their part-time jobs, rinse and repeat.
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Then it should, as a matter of due course, cause you to contemplate the sources of this. And, as I suggested before, and provided information to support my claim ... children are being ill-served by a flawed system ... and those flaws are not just isolated to the starting hour of the school day, but that is one of the more significant factors affecting kids. This fatigued state is not only an impediment to proper learning, but also affects physical and psychological development and mental health as I mentioned previously. Can you not contemplate a connection between final outcome and factors affecting development during those "developmental" years? It seems to me that such a connection might be more obvious to you, particularly given the attention this has received over the past 20 years ... much of which points to the need for changes, yet those changes simply aren't occurring.
All you need do is google "later starting times for public schools", and you'll get almost 4 Million hits. There is plethora of information out there in the form of scientific and practical studies that show an across the board improvement in all of the significant areas, from better grades, better discipline, lower drop out rates, and increased participation and student satisfaction resulting from simply moving the start time 1-1.5 hours later in the morning. And isn't that every school's major goals? Isn't it?
One such practical study was done in the mid-1990's. That's 15+ years ago ... but based on your attitude about this, maybe that explains why this information has not been acted upon by school boards nationwide. Fact is, it's so much easier to blame the parents and lack of funding, and if I were to be completely honest, I don't really think the school boards and teachers unions care quite as much about the delivered product as they would have us believe. Going on strike should serve as a clue here. Whatever fault lies with parents, in my estimation, comes in the form of failing to demand changes that will deliver better educational outcomes. And I dare say that many parents might balk at later starting times for school based on the impact that might have on their own routines of getting their kids off to school so they can get off to work.
But if you really think about it ... who decided that the day must begin at 0:dark:30 in the morning? Farmers. They have historically been tied to maximizing their productive work during the daylight hours, up at the crack of dawn to begin their long days, but for the rest of us .. why can't our work/school day begin at 10:00 am ? It easily could. But at the very least, we should make adjustments so that the kids can be better served, and not terrorized with "Frozen Marbles" at 6:30 am, to accommodate adult schedules. (I still can't believe you said that).
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Originally Posted by gallowsCalibrator
And who's job is it to ensure that the kids are sleeping? The parent/child combo.
They know: "You have to be awake by a certain hour, you should go to sleep by a certain hour."
It's not the school's faults for "being so dang early in the morning". In my 12 years of going to school, there was only one change to the hours of operation for schools - a 30 minute push back for middle school to give buses more time to deal with morning rush-hour traffic. Now that my daughter is in school, the hours are still the exact same as when I left.
So what's the difference? Why aren't kids able to handle it nowadays? Easy: They're being coddled by crap parents.
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Based on other comments in your post, you don't see any differences because you're just young, and things are as they have always been from your perspective. Your limited experience is limiting your analysis. But if it's not the "school's fault" for beginning "so dang early in the morning" ... who's fault is it? Al Qaeda? They seem to be responsible for everything else ... so maybe this is another Islamic plot to destroy western civilization?
The problems you refer to as a result of "coddling" are in fact a result of the many significant changes that have occurred over the past several decades that are cumulative, and didn't just appear overnight. Change has a tendency to follow a slow path, rather than abrupt big changes, and the results tend also to be cumulative and subtle. But there is no argument that it's an entirely different world today that even 20 years ago, never mind the dramatic differences compared to when I began school in the early 1960's. My reference earlier to "June and Ward Cleaver" was a popular television show of that era "leave it to Beaver", which I believe they've made a modern movie not long back. This depicted Hollywood's typical American family of the 1950's, including all of that outdated and backward "conservative nonsense" about good values, morality, social responsibility and right and wrong ... which seems to have no place in modern America, and rejected quite universally from the leftists who break out in hives at the mere mention of family values. To this new America, there's no place for such antiquated thinking ... probably because that morality and family values stuff won't fit in that tiny space where people now have their heads lodged. The problems resulting from this major shift that has occurred over the past 50 years is difficult to assess for those who's world view is restricted by a close up view of their own colons.
And though that 1950's show was artificially idealistic, and perhaps not totally reflective of real life 1950's, it was not that far off, either. Most families in those days had a father that worked, and a mother that stayed at home and raised the children ... all those things like homework, proper nutrition, proper bedtime, and preparation in the mornings for getting the kids off to school, and most importantly, closely monitoring the child's physical and mental development, was typical of that stay at home mom era. And, it worked.
But that bears no resemblance to American life today. The reality is, school has become today's parents .. and it has proven to be a very poor substitute, and the results are showing. The school teacher spends more time with the kids than their own parents do .... if the kid gets the 10 hours of sleep they require, and they spend 8 hours a day in school including transit ... or even more, if the kid is involved in extracurricular activities at school, as so many are ... there is only 24 hours a day ... and the mathematics are what they are. Consequently, parents are relegated to 30 minute updates from their children regarding their lives during the week, with the other couple of free hours spent on practical matters. The schools have them for the majority of their waking hours m-f, so dismissing the school's contributions to the results being witnessed is simply delusion.
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Originally Posted by gallowsCalibrator
Funny. Growing up, I only had one parent, so I never experienced this "June and Ward Cleaver" thing you speak of. After school, until I was old enough to be home alone, I went to an after-school center where I did my homework and played with other kids. When my dad picked myself and my sister up, he'd cook dinner and quickly check over homework. We'd eat dinner around 1830 to 1900 or so. We sat and ate, talked about our days, then off to do our own things (or as a family) until bedtime at 9.
When I was old enough, it was "get home, play on the internet". Ah, the years of Neopets, watching anime, playing video games... without a care in the world. Now, my dad never did the homework review once I got to that age, because it was a "I trust you to do it and if you don't, you'll grades will suffer and you'll be kicked out the magnet program". I did most of my homework. I also chose my own bedtime - to the tune of "If you're too tired, then you'll be the one to suffer." I generally went to bed about 11 or midnight of my own accord.
Noooooow, as for my daughter, my husband is a stay-at-home dad, so she does get this "June and Ward Cleaver" treatment. A well-balanced dinner (made at home by my chef of a husband) is served between 1715-1730. Homework is done by that time, same as chores. After dinner, family time until bed at 830. Then again, we chose to set up like this, sacrificing the extra income to give our daughter the parental attention she deserves.
Translation: Things may be harder than you remember at that age, but it's not friggin' rocket science. Here's a few tips on how to be a proper parent.
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My my .. now I'm really confused. There you are, advocating that which you are also arguing against?
Do you do this often? So you two made the conscious decision that a stay at home parent provides the best scenario for your kids .. therefore I'm left with the assumption that in your mind, if you can do it, so can everyone else? That it? Well, that sounds good, but not exactly practical or even possible for far too many. Everyone's financial situation is different, and that is part of the slow but damaging changes that have occurred over time. Your stay at home parent situation was typical in the 1950's and 1960's ... today it's a rarity .... and that was one of my points. The modern, practical realities of American life have changed dramatically, and those changes have had a dramatic negative impact on the results. The lack of parental guidance and preparation children receive today, relegated to being wards of the state school system, strikes at the heart of the matter, and you yourself acknowledge this by your own choices and sacrifices to mitigate some of that. Is there a light bulb coming on here for you?
You know, it's OKAY to agree with me.
You have the right to change your opinion. It's called growing wiser with age and new information and new perspectives.
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Originally Posted by gallowsCalibrator
Okay. And, for the most part, if parents are actually parenting, they can make it work. Instill the values from a young age and the kids will grow into the routine and understand why they need to sleep. My 6-year old even understands the basic concept of "If I want to be ready for the day, I need to sleep" and thus doesn't fight it (too much) when we say things like "You look really tired, why don't you get some extra sleep tonight".
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When I look around, I see a truckload of issues that really challenge your points here. You may not notice them, being the frog that has been slowly brought to the boil ... again, because of your limited experience and perspective ... you are not in the position of making the same comparative analysis as someone older (which unfortunately defines me
).
But you might be surprised to learn, just as I was, that the kids most suffering the sleep issues are the older kids, not the younger ones. And it makes sense when you think about it. First, what works for your 6 year old ... "it's 9:00, time to go to bed" ... has one large snowball's chance in hell of working for the 14 year old. Go ahead and try ... and come back in 8 years and tell me how it worked out for you.
The teenagers are at a particularly precarious age ... not quite adults, and not quite children .. they're in that limbo transition zone .. and the challenges are exponential from their and their parents perspectives. Their academic and social obligations and pressures are much more demanding (yes, the social part is an obligation of emerging adulthood), and their psychological development is at a particularly fragile stage as they try to deal with raging hormonal changes that are typical of both physical and mental transition, which is no picnic for teenagers ... all while really trying to figure out where they fit into this new world of adult like responsibility and challenge. Throw in peer pressures, and unlimited sources of unwholesome influences from the media and entertainment worlds, which now must also include the schools themselves, since they begin passing out condoms to 5th graders today whilst their parents (hopefully) are imploring them not to become active in such areas!
No ... you might believe this is all normal, but that's only because it's been so freaking abnormal for so long now, you just don't have an experience of normal to compare it to. I do ... and I promise you, that I was never exposed, even at 12, to the things 8 year olds are being exposed to, right in the school classroom. Talk about parents obligations? How? How do parents manage to undo what the school has all day, 5 days a week to do, in the space of one hour each evening? Combine that with the trash that is passed off as prime time entertainment these days .... blood and guts and sex and mayhem and Lady Gaga covered in blood, and selling perfume with human bodily fluids therein .... and I'm just scratching the surface, unfortunately.
Open your eyes. That's all I can tell ya.
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Originally Posted by gallowsCalibrator
Excellent hyperbole.
Yeeeeep. Let's ignore the years upon years upon decades of data showing the superiority of Japanese schools over American schools all because of an incident that happened last year.
Fact is that Japan's version of our grade schools produce better results educationally and in physical fitness. And, as you probably know, even in America, Asians generally test highest amongst student breakdowns. Why? Because of a parenting style that emphasizes heavy focus on studies.
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Nope, sorry. You're lost in the soy sauce. What you fail to realize is that to compare Japan to the United States, is like comparing an elephant to a mouse. We have totally different cultures ... absolutely polar opposites. Consequently, the idea that what works for Japan would work here is preposterously out of touch with reality. It is not nearly as simple as you'd like to suggest.
If you really want another jab in the ideological ribcage ... you are once again arguing on behalf of my position. Japan is an EXTREMELY CONSERVATIVE society, and if there is any one example that a liberal progressive would not want to utilize in an argument, Japan would be the one to avoid like the plague. Japanese culture is antithetical to left wing ideology right down the the level of DNA, and if you think liberals have a bad rep in the US ... just take that social liberalism over for a spin along the conservative highways of Japan for a major revelation. You will be politely asked to leave the country, only because of Japanese sense of decorum won't permit them to tell you what they really think.
The Japanese are so conservative, they make the 700 Club look like gay bar in San Francisco
Their culture is immersed in the obligation to honor, and honesty, and family values which even the most conservative of Americans would find rather repressive. You do not disobey authority ... you do not disobey parents ... you do nothing that would cause the loss of "face" to yourself or your family. These people are the epitome of dedication, hard work, and self sacrifice. The recent tragedy there was a perfect example of the vast cultural difference .... no looting ... no one taking advantage ... restaurants providing free meals to anyone ... stores providing free goods to anyone .... people banding together to help each other, and not an inkling of violence or crime, such that RIDDLED New Orleans during and after katrina ... some of which was even perpetrated by the local police!!
Frankly, Japanese culture more closely resembles 1950's conservative America, so if you want to argue for Japanese solutions to our education problems, I'm with you .... but I'm not so sure you are with yourself.
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Originally Posted by gallowsCalibrator
Yep. Pretty much. A bit of a huge hyperbole, but the the basis is the same: Do your job as a parent and make sure your kids are ready for school.
Not sure why you're making it a liberal/conservative thing here. Last I checked, parenting strategies are not limited by political ideologies.
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With all of this digging, we are beginning to uncover some of your issues. Fact is, social ideology has EVERYTHING to do with parenting strategies, and particularly how that job of parenting is affected by outside influences, and particularly relevant to what we've thus far been discussing about the role of public schools and it's negative results in educating our children. I cannot imagine how one could lose sight of that rather large elephant in the living room. But you seem to?
You may not even realize it, and I suspect you don't ... but your seemingly natural inclination to blame parents first, while dismissing any other outside influence, like schools, is the classic "collectivist" mentality. The "system" imposes the rules, but the results, and particularly the negative results are assigned to the individual who did not make the rules. The system cannot be flawed, therefore it cannot be responsible for the poor results. And all that is needed is one example of success to validate the system. Yet, we have seen a massive decline in education, so to the collectivist, it's just a massive number of individuals failing the system, and not the system failing the individuals? What this really is, is left wing collectivist denial.
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Originally Posted by gallowsCalibrator
Though, I would say that our schools are producing illiterate children because of coddling helicopter parents who kvetch about the atrocity of "having to wake up early" and "having to do homework" and the oh-so-dreaded "treating kids increasingly like adults as they grow up"... rather than parents who go out of their way to make sure their kid is ready for school, doing their schoolwork, giving them increased responsibilities as they get older, etc.
Needless to say, the ideology you present in your attitude towards schooling? Instill that in a young child from the get-go and you get a kid who is late to class, does nothing to participate, doesn't do homework, and generally doesn't learn anything. AKA, the growing problem of illiterate tards who treat anything dealing with school as The Plague.
The growing amount of parents who just don't care mixed with the over-coddling helicopter parents are becoming more and more of a problem.
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Wow. I bet I can guess what school you didn't show up on time to? That would be charm school.
Coddling parents raising lazy good for nothing retards who can't show up on time who are destined to become a failed generation of worthless adults, when all that was needed was frozen marbles, and a good swift kick in the rear?
You really don't care for people too much it seems. I detect a very hostile attitude toward your fellow man, and children too, save for your own. But I gotta tell ya ... you are also the most perplexing of individuals for which I have thus far encountered. You have an extreme conservative bend at moments, that interlaces with an overall screaming progressive liberal mindset. This is the kind of mixture that causes heads to explode, and I'm not sure which one of us is in the most immanent danger here.
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Originally Posted by gallowsCalibrator
Have you heard about the growing trend of mid-20's college graduates who have their mommies and daddies making their resumes, submitting them to places, calling potential bosses, and even calling bosses who don't hire their babies? Heck, there's even parents that go to their child's interviews and try to negotiate salaries! These were the same parents who whined and complained about how early the school day started or just how terrible homework was. These were the parents who called teachers and schools when their precious angel didn't get an A to find out why the teacher was such a jerk.
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I assign all of that to the liberal progressive "entitlement" mentality. And I find it disgustingly sad that we've become this gaggle of whining cry babies who look upon personal responsibility as someone else's job. We have to ensure that everyone succeeds ... as it is not fair for the more gifted to make the less gifted feel inferior. Everyone makes the ball team, or we need to get rid of it altogether. We need crash helmets for the kids riding tricycles in the front yard, and if Johnny climbs a tree, call 911 to get the fire dept out here before he falls and breaks his neck. We have to teach tolerance of homosexuality to 7 year olds ... and pass out condoms to 5th graders ... and we teach children how to pass the national standards tests because federal funding depends on achieving certain scores. We pass out morning after abortion pills to kids without their parents consent, just as we inject them with dangerous vaccines with no need for parental approval. I could go on and on here ... but the point is, this is a result of 30+ years of liberal progressive restructuring of our education system, converting it into a socialist indoctrination-reeducation camp.
At the end of the day, I suppose it could be the parents that must be accountable for allowing this ghoulish system to come within a mile of their children, but the schools and the progressives which dominate our education system today bear some responsibility too.
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