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According to Russia's gun laws, Russian citizens can buy smoothbore shotguns, such as, for example Saiga 12, gas pistols, or revolvers shooting rubber bullets. Safe use of one of the above weapons for five years allows purchase of a rifle or carbine.
In Moscow alone, some 400,000 people legally keep 470,000 weapons
Your first statement on this is
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The study used Russia as an example of a country with strict gun laws, but high murder rates. The truth is that in Moscow alone, some 400,000 people legally keep 470,000 weapons.
I posted that the average Russian was limited to primarily shotguns, gas pistols and revolvers shooting rubber bullets. It is.
You stated the same statistic and said no I was wrong. There are two points I want to make.
By your measure then no country in the world has gun control, you can obtain guns in the UK, France, Germany, even Denmark. Its disingenous to imply that the 470k weapons are similar to US weapons, they're not. You CANNOT own a revolver or semi-auto pistol unless you're a police officer, even bodyguards can only lease them. Even after 5 years you can own A rifle or carbine, but not a pistol.
The 470,000 weapons owned by 400,000 people is total weapons, within a population of 11.5M, it's a totally different level of ownership than in any US city, it's even less than the UK (who's ownership is 6.2%) at 3.5% ownership rate for Moscow. Does the UK have strict gun laws? If it does and the ownership rate in Moscow is lower, then what's the implication? There are two, one is that people just don't want guns, however since there are demands to relax gun laws in Russia that doesn't seem to be the case, or they have strict laws. Take your pick.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Right, we do NOT. Our issues with corruption are NOTHING compared to Russia. None of your examples have anything to do with police corruption. The murder rate in Chicago has been cut to half.
What the ATF Gunwalking wasn't corruption? It was certainly someone co-opting the system, for reasons unknown. It wasn't just Fast And Furious, the previous operation Wide Receiver before then was so badly run prosecutors didn't want to bring them to trial. Plus when you consider the ripple effect up the DoJ you know that there was something weird going on. Holder was held in contempt of congress for chrissakes, and the Acting head of the ATF made the following statement
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"Choices and consequences simply means that, as an employee of ATF, should you decide not to abide by the standards of conduct or the rules of the road, should you decide that you're not going to play by the rules, there will be consequences. Choices and consequences means simply that if you make poor choices, that if you don't abide by the rules, that if you don't respect the chain of command, if you don't find the appropriate way to raise your concerns to your leadership, there will be consequences because we cannot tolerate, we cannot tolerate an undisciplined organization."
And those are not the actions of a corrupt organization? What's your definition, since a law enforcement agency committing known crimes, failing to obtain prosecutions, restricting investigations of their actions so that the Attorney General is held in contempt of congress, and the acting head of the ATF makes veiled threats to possible whistleblowers, obviously isn't.
So Chicago is better because there are only 500 people a year murdered, rather than 1000. I'll add that backdoor prohibition on handgun ownership in Chicago dates back to 1980 when they required firearm registration but prevented handguns being registered. So if the fall has happened since peaking in 1991 with 927, to date, then what's caused it? Because it certainly wasn't gun control. Maybe we should consider doing whatever that is in preference to gun control, because a 50% reduction in homicides is better than the UK has achieved since 1997.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
My whole point was to say we do not know if the ban had anything to do with the decline, and I said that the spike in violence before the ban was fueled by the crack epidemic, not by presence of guns.
No what you said was...
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
That's what I said. There was a dramatic decrease in murder when the ban went into effect, but there may have been other factors.
But there wasn't a dramatic effect, the trend was already falling when the ban came into effect. A dramatic effect was if the trend line was heading up and it leveled off or fell, or if it was level and began to fall, or there was a fall, and it doubled the rate of fall then you'd have a point, but that doesn't appear to be the case from the actual graph, it's a pretty consistent gradient from 1993 through to 1998.
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
It sounds like you like to argue just for the sake of arguing, because you just keep jammering on, and you don't even realize I oppose gun bans.
Well perhaps if your actual content reflected that then I wouldn't be arguing.
If gun control doesn't work, why does every other first world nation have gun control and lower homicide rates?
Because guns are only one of 1,000 ways those other countries are different from the US, do you people really not see that? lets ditch the Constitution, those other countries don't have one. Lets radically cut our population and land mass too. Lets get rid of people who are different, most of those other countries you admire so much have very homogeneous populations. Lets adopt their VERY strict immigration policies as well and get rid of the illegals.
in the end, gun control isnt about guns, as much as it is about control. and it starts out innocently enough;
but we just want to ban a few of those "evil" military style guns, you cant be against that can you? then it progresses to "no one really needs a semi auto to hunt do they?" and then it progresses to " we need to ban those evil military style calibers, you cant be against that can you? eventually it gets to, we have come for your evil black powder muzzle loaders, because by that time thats all that left for law abiding citizens.
its called incrementalism, and the progressives have been doing it for 100 years in a variety of things from food, to tobacco, to just about anything they dont like. now they are coming after our guns.
Wow, every post by the OP resembles a bipolar homeless person we helped in September. I feel sad watching it.
They found a single study and started waving it at every single person who walked by. Anyone who supplied different information was claimed to be believing some sort of propaganda. Anyone who didn't believe was insulted and called illiterate, stupid, or refused to read their study. Responding in kind to the insulting manner to the OP/crackpot we tried to help caused the person to claim an authority figure was going to censure them (such as post #53 by the OP). The only difference between the OP and the crackpot we saw in person was that the OP was raving about gun control, and the crackpot was raving about vegetarianism.
We tried to help the guy raving about vegetarianism. Even when confronted with the remaining parts of the same study that disproved his idea he called it propaganda by liberals, much like the OP and any post he disagreed with. Monomania is a factor in bipolar, schizophrenia, and OCD...so I can't tell yet what the OP suffers from. Jared Lee Loughner suffered from a similar disease that included monomania about language controlling thoughts as the OP thinks that anything relating to keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill is some liberal propaganda. I don't think the OP is violent, but I think they need help to return to a normal life.
God bless OP. I see your pain every day and in Christ I hope to help those in need. Please find those who love and care for those in need that will help you towards a loving and caring future. Please find it soon so they can do the most good, and you don't get harmed by your disease.
Wow, every post by the OP resembles a bipolar homeless person we helped in September. I feel sad watching it.
They found a single study and started waving it at every single person who walked by. Anyone who supplied different information was claimed to be believing some sort of propaganda. Anyone who didn't believe was insulted and called illiterate, stupid, or refused to read their study. Responding in kind to the insulting manner to the OP/crackpot we tried to help caused the person to claim an authority figure was going to censure them (such as post #53 by the OP). The only difference between the OP and the crackpot we saw in person was that the OP was raving about gun control, and the crackpot was raving about vegetarianism.
We tried to help the guy raving about vegetarianism. Even when confronted with the remaining parts of the same study that disproved his idea he called it propaganda by liberals, much like the OP and any post he disagreed with. Monomania is a factor in bipolar, schizophrenia, and OCD...so I can't tell yet what the OP suffers from. Jared Lee Loughner suffered from a similar disease that included monomania about language controlling thoughts as the OP thinks that anything relating to keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill is some liberal propaganda. I don't think the OP is violent, but I think they need help to return to a normal life.
God bless OP. I see your pain every day and in Christ I hope to help those in need. Please find those who love and care for those in need that will help you towards a loving and caring future. Please find it soon so they can do the most good, and you don't get harmed by your disease.
A typical liberal rant which lacks any factual data, recalls a colorful, irrelevant anecdote, and fails to provide actual data (outside of of an aberration in Australia), regarding any real data.
I guess liberals have vacated the field and admitted defeat, as they cannot refute the actual data. It has been hilarious to watch the libs squirm in the face of irrefutable data. I can see why these people voted for Obama now, as rational thought is not their strong suit.
Maybe as Jefferson said that the bibile was too full of supernatural garbage and so he wrote the Jefferson bible.
Or maybe you mean Thomas Paine was right when he said,
"as to the book called the bible,it is blasphemy to call it the word of god. It is a book of lies and contradictions and a history of bad times and bad men"
Thomas Paine
Or maybe both Jefferson and Paine are in eternal hell for being wrong.
What the ATF Gunwalking wasn't corruption? It was certainly someone co-opting the system, for reasons unknown. It wasn't just Fast And Furious, the previous operation Wide Receiver before then was so badly run prosecutors didn't want to bring them to trial. Plus when you consider the ripple effect up the DoJ you know that there was something weird going on. Holder was held in contempt of congress for chrissakes, and the Acting head of the ATF made the following statement
And those are not the actions of a corrupt organization? What's your definition, since a law enforcement agency committing known crimes, failing to obtain prosecutions, restricting investigations of their actions so that the Attorney General is held in contempt of congress, and the acting head of the ATF makes veiled threats to possible whistleblowers, obviously isn't.
Perhaps you do not know what corruption is. ATF was not doing what they did because someone bribed them, they were execution a program which was started under Bush admin, and continued under Obama admin.
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So Chicago is better because there are only 500 people a year murdered, rather than 1000.
If that manage to cut murder in half, I'd say that's a heck of a good start.
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No what you said was...
This is what I said:
There was a dramatic decrease in murder when the ban went into effect, but there may have been other factors. And when the ban expired in 2004, the violence did not jump back to where it was before the ban. Will it go back in near future? I doubt it, but in FL the numbers are creeping back up. I think in late 1980s and early 1990s the biggest reason for the violent crime explosion was the crack-cocaine epidemic.
Why did you omit the part I was referring to?
About Russia:
They have 13 million guns in private hands
They have 9 firearms per 100 private people
They rank #9 out of 178 countries in number of guns owned (68 in rate of ownership, Israel is 79)
Since actual, factual data shows that gun control does not reduce crime (particularly murder rates), why in the world does anyone advocate gun control?
True. Wash DC is #1 in gun deaths and #1 in gun control.
Gun control only make idiot politicians look like they care. It's a vote grabbing effort.
A typical liberal rant which lacks any factual data, recalls a colorful, irrelevant anecdote, and fails to provide actual data (outside of of an aberration in Australia), regarding any real data.
I guess liberals have vacated the field and admitted defeat, as they cannot refute the actual data. It has been hilarious to watch the libs squirm in the face of irrefutable data. I can see why these people voted for Obama now, as rational thought is not their strong suit.
I provided real data, and the history of other countries, and you called me illiterate (funny in a written forum) spouting liberal propaganda. You have been provided data by a number of people and you refuse to even acknowledge it exists after insulting it.
I also never said a word about Australia, so talking about some one lacking the ability to think rationally is pretty ironic.
Get help, seriously. This kind of manic delusional problem does not end well.
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