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Hawkeye has always used false propaganda. You can find an expert or student that wrote a paper on how the moon is made of green cheese. He has a strong bias and would find a reason to denounce Mother Theresa if he thought she was a liberal. I don't take him very seriously.
If gun control doesn't work, why does every other first world nation have gun control and lower homicide rates?
How many of these countries had nearly 300 million firearms legally in the hands of citizens and who knows how many illegal firearms? Even if the the second amendment was repealed you still have nearly 300 million guns in the hands of citizens that will require the owners being compensated for that now have a value on the black market of epic proportions.
Hawkeye has always used false propaganda. You can find an expert or student that wrote a paper on how the moon is made of green cheese. He has a strong bias and would find a reason to denounce Mother Theresa if he thought she was a liberal. I don't take him very seriously.
Theresa was a liberal, but one of the very rare moral, God fearing ones.
1. Could you provide some citation to your mention please?
2. Did you isolate the cause of the decline? Were crime rates falling already before the law was put in?
Your citation would help us understand the point you are making as well as allow us to evaluate any other considerations of relation to which you may have not considered.
Accordign to their numbers homicide in Australia has declined about 44% since they changed the gun laws. Robberies are down from 16K to 14K. Homicides by firearm declines 59%. Mass killings are down to zero. Is it because of the ban, or because of coincidence? I don't know, but most people in Australis think so.
In UK, gun crime has declined from 24 000 in 2003 to 3 100 in 2011. Coincidence? Hey, if you say so, but it is what it is. They banned guns in 1998, and initially crime went up, and then it started to decrease and kept decreasing every year. Same happened in Australia, first increase, and then a steady decrease.
PS. I am not pro-ban, and I stick to what I said earlier about what the discussion should be and what it should not be.
Lets take the Chinese attack all you far right wing nuts talk about, Yes with a knife this guy hurt 20 or so people, but every one is still walking. I bet every thing I own, that every one of the parents in CT would take a kid with a healing cut over one with 7 223 rounds in a box.
Now for the false dichotomy you throw out, not many but the far left is saying to ban guns. What is being talked about ranges from making semi autos in a class like the NFA controlled full autos to baning just these high capacity semi autos like Australia did.
Which Chinese stabbing? Last week's or the one two years ago that claimed 20 lives? Or the one in 2009...
"No motive was given for the attack, which resembled a similar assault against Chinese schoolchildren in 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50. The most recent such attack took place in August, when a man broke into a middle school in the southern city of Nanchang and stabbed two students before fleeing."
China has a murder rate of 1 per 100000 with 5 times the population of the USA, the USA has 5 times the murder rate of china with 1/5 the population. So according to your logic, lets go communist it works. I don't need a study to know as a gun owner that a semi automatic is more dangerous than a full auto.
I have known this for many years. Sure to the untrained a full auto seems to bark and make it look scary but to people who have been around guns for years we know that unless you are trained to pump the trigger and its built into the sub conscious then you will waste a lot of bullets into thin air. A semi auto on the other hand you will point consciously pull the trigger on each target adjusting before you do. The bullets tend to find the target much more often on a semi auto then on a full auto.
Which Chinese stabbing? Last week's or the one two years ago that claimed 20 lives? Or the one in 2009...
"No motive was given for the attack, which resembled a similar assault against Chinese schoolchildren in 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50. The most recent such attack took place in August, when a man broke into a middle school in the southern city of Nanchang and stabbed two students before fleeing."
China has 1/5 the murder rate we do and very few with guns. Do you really want to keep using that and an example? Also I bet if last weeks shooter had been armed with only a knife he may not have gotten in the building. He had to shoot out a tempered glass window to get in. And I bet if a teacher would lung at someone with a knife she would have had ten times the chance of slowing him down and or even holding him back until other could jump him.Maybe even is all he could get was a pump shot gun, but with a 30 rd mag 223 she was a fish in a barrel. Sorry your logic does not stand up to common sense.
I am a gun owner and have assault rifles and I have to admit that selling guns in the parking lot of the local wal mart with out so much as taking down the guys car plate is not going to end well some of the time. I would say that many times its a legal transaction, but it only takes one to get through. Why can't gun owners say that even if they don't want to ban assault weapons, at the very minimum we should all agree on is that there should be a federal law that mandates all guns transactions go through a licensed FFL dealer and a back ground check is done. Will this stop all crime? You would be a fool to think it would. But it may stop some. We have to plug that hole. Its just stupid to require BGC and federal forms filled out and ID taken on dealer sales then you can walk to the table next to the dealer at the gun show and buy from a private individual without so much as as a how old are you.
This is what I meant when I said hard ass idiots in the gun culture are going to get all our guns taken away if we don't start to work on common ground. This Republican we give no ground and don't move an inch is pissing people off. There are millions of women and parents that were indifferent to guns, but now are looking at gun owners and when they see Ted Nugent running his idiot mouth and others who say we will do nothing and you can't take my gun, then see the small wood boxes being carried in and out of funeral homes, well we ain't going to win that fight.
If gun control doesn't work, why does every other first world nation have gun control and lower homicide rates?
Correlation does not prove causation.
Other first world nations have smaller disparity of wealth, better social care systems, older cultures, any one of these could be the difference and most likely is. I grew up in the UK, and my Junior School was older than any building in the US, and one of my Universities was founded before Christopher Columbus was even born, however that said why have firearms murders in the UK been mostly stationary for more than 20 years, given the 1997 Firearms act banned the possession of handguns entirely, and more strongly restricted rifle and shotgun ownership? However crimes where guns were used (Robbery, non-fatal shootings etc.) in the UK ballooned from around 5000 incidents per year in 1997 to roughly 11,000 by 2006. Why has violent crime and burglary exploded?
Interestingly in 1900 the UK had zero gun control (Criminal or a Lunatic step right up and get your gun) and a murder rate of 0.96/100,000, the US murder rate at the same time was 1.2 (most likely with more gun control than the UK certainly in localities). 2010 UK Murder rate 1.23/100,000, US 4.8 both with more gun control than 1900.
Every other first world nation does not have gun control (as you think about it either) either, compare the gun control that exists in New York and the gun control that exists in France, its a lot easier to get a gun in France than in New York, yet New York States murder rate is more than 5.5 times higher than France. While the gun control I'm speaking about applies to New York City and not a nation, the Murder rate applies to New York State (and not New York City), it's still an interesting data point... No?
Or the alternative comparison would be the murder rate of say Minnesota (1.4/100,000) compared to Massachusetts (2.6/100,000), while this may seem to be an unfair comparison, if gun control actually worked, then even accounting for a higher rate of murder due to population density Massachusetts should have the same or lower murder rate as Minnesota.
Even more telling why have murder rates in the US been dropping with decreasing gun controls, more states have no permit for concealed carry and shall issue permitting than in the 80's and 90's but we have lower murder rates it was around 10/100,000 in 1980 down to 4.7/100,000 2011, and of course since 2004 the AWB sunset the murder rates are down further still.
If gun control actually worked, then surely with more restrictions there would be lower murder rates, this is not shown to be the case in either the historical UK data (a 25% increase compared to 1900) or the US data (a 400% increase), in fact the data correlates to the reverse being true, however that does not necessarily mean that more gun ownership results in lower murder rates, just that there is a correlation.
The big issue is that murder isn't random, the average convicted murderer has a rap sheet that includes drug possession, and violence, and they have been a professional criminal for some time. Now I'm not talking about serial killers here, or mass murderers, but your average meat and potatoes kind of killer who make up 90% or more of all murder statistics. While their victims may not also be criminal, but if not they are much more likely to be also victims of another crime the killer is perpetrating for example a home invasion/burglary, rape, or just random assault that goes too far.
If we consider that most murderers (>90%) are not random, but actually do follow quite a strict pattern, then prohibiting guns to people who do not fit that pattern is counter productive.
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