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Many aborted fetuses would have survived outside their mother's womb if anyone had bothered to try to keep them alive.
So. What's the anti-choice crowd doing these days to make sure that every.single.child who makes it through the birth canal is loved, fed, housed, educated and clothed?
In a family. Where they will be cherished. Because the anti-choice attitude of "keeping them alive" does NOTHING for the kid who gets the crap beat out of him every night because he's an unwanted child.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 12-04-2013 at 12:06 PM..
Your argument, then, fails to address the fact that pregnancy is a separate consequence from children. And that pregnancy impacts the woman uniquely and separately from men. In a society with a patriarchal cultural legacy, women lag behind men in all ways. Pregnancies play into that lag. If a man makes a decision that clearly benefits his well-being and doesn't break any laws, it's unquestioned. If a woman makes a decision that clearly benefits her well-being and doesn't break any laws, she is selfish, immoral, irresponsible or stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuselage
Really? The women around you walk around completely covered up? No hemlines above the knee? They cover their hair when they enter church? They ride their horses "sidesaddle?" You don't get married once your are a widow/widower? Women don't wear make-up? They don't drive cars? They don't kiss in public? No bikinis? No bathing suits? No exposed skin, ever? They don't work? Homosexuals are put to death? Sexual and/or emotional language is tabu? Sex before marriage is a crime? Children out of wedlock bring severe repercussions with them?
You see, what is considered moral or not is, indeed, highly subjective. How do you not know that?
Not just inter-culturally, but most certainly intra-culturally. Even within an accepted moral codex there is wide variation between individuals.
Look around you: People have all kinds of ideas what is morally acceptable and what is not. There is no set standard - there is only a wide-meshed, overarching framework that tackles the most basic of principles and defines them as right or wrong in often crude terms. Those items are generally agreed-upon but anything more subtle is utterly subjective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuselage
Wishful thinking does not equal reality.
I find it rather sickening to argue that people who are irresponsible must be forced to go through pregnancy
Pregnancy and the birth of a child should be something joyful - not a means of punishment for irresponsible behavior. That's very, very twisted.
Sure, "both men and women need to step up and be responsible." Of course, the reality is, again, that it's the woman who gets forced to do something against her will - what a misogynist standpoint.
you people can do and believe what ever you want, i dont care as it has little effect on me. all i am saying is that you need to realize that with rights and freedoms come responsibilities. you want to have sex, then recognize upfront that pregnancy is a real possibility. even abortion has its consequences as well. some women have been physically scarred as a result of an abortion, some women have even died as a result of an abortion. and i am not talking about back alley abortions either, but ones done in proper well staffed well run clinics. as i said there are consequences to every action, and you have to be aware of those consequences.
women have the consequence of a possible pregnancy, men have the consequence not only of that possible pregnancy, but having a vengeful woman crying rape when the man doesnt want to live up to his responsibilities.
so go ahead and play your games, and do what you want, its your life not mine. but when something bad happens to you, dont come crying to me as a result because i warned you upfront.
morality is not sujective. it has been written into every society that has been on this planet. and yes its true a woman con what ever she wants with her body, but she has to recognize that there are consequences to the actions she takes, just like there are consequences to the actions that men take. if you dont want to deal with the possible consequences, then dont take the action. if you dont want to deal with an unwanted pregnancy, then dont have sex, its that simple. the problem though is that people want to have their cake and eat it too and not get fat. sorry but life doesnt work that way. if you have sex, there is a possibility of pregnancy, and the consequences that go along with that pregnancy. if the woman gets pregnant, the man should step up and support the child and be part of its life. but we have gotten to a point where if a child is unwanted, no problem women can take a pill or go to a clinic and get rid of the problem like its nothing. sorry i dont work that way, when i was younger, and had i gotten a woman pregnant, i would have stepped up and been responsible, and i would have expected the woman to do the same.
we cant shirk our responsibilities just because we dont want them. that is a big part of morality.
then the woman has to take responsibility for their actions, just like men do, as i said above. as i said before, and will say again, pregnancy is a consequence of having sex, and if you dont want to deal with that consequence, then DONT HAVE SEX!!
and i can accept a woman having an abortion under those circumstances, as well as to save the life of the women if a pregnancy puts her life in jeopardy. but to have an abortion just because someone doesnt want a child, sorry that is wrong imo. you made that child, you need to step up and take responsibility for the actions that made that child, and yes again the man as well needs to step up.
right, women decode they want a night of debauchery regardless of the fact that they know that such a night can lead to a pregnancy, but they dont care about that, they want their fun and damn the consequences. well sorry they knew the consequences before hand, and they have to deal with the aftermath as a result.
first off i would not like living in iran, personally i like my cars and computers, and my freedoms. second i dont want morality police hanging around. but people have to understand that with rights come responsibilities, same with freedom. and that there are consequences to their actions. men and women know that a sexual union can result in a pregnancy, and they have to either be ready for that possibility and steo up and take responsibility, or dont engage in that union. and dont get me wrong, sex is a hell of a lot of fun, i recognize that, but again i recognize that there is a possibility of a pregnancy as a result of that fun. morality isnt just waiting to have sex, or not having fun, its about taking responsibility for the aftermath of that fun.
morality is highly subjective. your moral value is yours. premarital sex is now common place yet some think it is immoral, obviously millions disagree. so yes, as others pointed out morality is subjective.
telling consenting adults not to have sex on the off chance they might get pregnant is not a workable solution. your values are what people "should do" I agree it would be nice if every pregnancy was wanted. that men didn't run out on women leaving them to fend for themselves. that women didn't get raped or victims of incest. that people don't get carried away one night when they didn't plan to. "should" is not how the world works. neither is telling adults to not have sex.
your stance on being pro choice for women who have been raped or molested, or where the mother's life is in danger says volumes that for other women they must be punished, making their bed now they must lay in it, mentality. sounds like judgment and punishment. pure and simple.
why is the "life" of one fetus deemed less worthy vs the one that happened otherwise?
you people can do and believe what ever you want, i dont care as it has little effect on me. all i am saying is that you need to realize that with rights and freedoms come responsibilities. you want to have sex, then recognize upfront that pregnancy is a real possibility. even abortion has its consequences as well. some women have been physically scarred as a result of an abortion, some women have even died as a result of an abortion. and i am not talking about back alley abortions either, but ones done in proper well staffed well run clinics. as i said there are consequences to every action, and you have to be aware of those consequences.
women have the consequence of a possible pregnancy, men have the consequence not only of that possible pregnancy, but having a vengeful woman crying rape when the man doesnt want to live up to his responsibilities.
so go ahead and play your games, and do what you want, its your life not mine. but when something bad happens to you, dont come crying to me as a result because i warned you upfront.
death from abortion is extremely rare. women are not stupid we know what abortion is. abortion is taking responsibility.
so go ahead and play your games, and do what you want, its your life not mine. but when something bad happens to you, dont come crying to me as a result because i warned you upfront.
you people can do and believe what ever you want, i dont care as it has little effect on me. all i am saying is that you need to realize that with rights and freedoms come responsibilities. you want to have sex, then recognize upfront that pregnancy is a real possibility. even abortion has its consequences as well. some women have been physically scarred as a result of an abortion, some women have even died as a result of an abortion. and i am not talking about back alley abortions either, but ones done in proper well staffed well run clinics. as i said there are consequences to every action, and you have to be aware of those consequences.
women have the consequence of a possible pregnancy, men have the consequence not only of that possible pregnancy, but having a vengeful woman crying rape when the man doesnt want to live up to his responsibilities.
so go ahead and play your games, and do what you want, its your life not mine. but when something bad happens to you, dont come crying to me as a result because i warned you upfront.
Pregnancy has far greater consequences. Look up the death rates of pregnancy vs abortion. You're far more likely to die from giving birth than having an abortion.
Furthermore, what is the leading cause of death for pregnant women? Its' not gestational diabetes. It's being killed by their partners.
Who gets to make such rules? What gives anyone the right to? A fetus is nothing like a newborn? They look exactly like a baby. Many aborted fetuses would have survived outside their mother's womb if anyone had bothered to try to keep them alive.
I do hope we agree that children from newborn to age 10 are alive. They can't survive unaided. Does that mean they haven't the right to live? Are they disposable "non-living collections of cells"??
who gets to make the rules. the woman who has to carry the pregnancy to term gets to make them for herself. no a fetus is not like a newborn. the pictures you posted is a pregnancy late in term and almost ready to deliver. it looks nothing like the stage of development when most pregnancies are aborted.
"many" fetuses have survived outside the womb? do you know anything about late term abortions? get educated. late term abortions are wanted pregnancies. the baby in most all cases is severely compromised and most would not live once born. that choice, that agony is not your business, nor is it your judgment call.
yes children and newborns up to ten can't live unaided. as stated before that job can go to anyone that wants it. be it a dad, an uncle a foster care. it is not dependent on the womb of an unwilling mother. you can't be that obtuse to gloss over that fact, or do you just close your mind to it?
Pregnancy has far greater consequences. Look up the death rates of pregnancy vs abortion. You're far more likely to die from giving birth than having an abortion.
Furthermore, what is the leading cause of death for pregnant women? Its' not gestational diabetes. It's being killed by their partners.
gee I wonder how we can keep all these women pregnant who don't want to be? maybe we should send them to pregnancy and birthing camps. a state agency where we give blood tests to women every few weeks between the ages of 12 and 50 to monitor their reproduction. yep, forcing a woman to remain pregnant, give birth against her will, then making her raise the baby or give it up for adoption is the way to go for these woman who have sex for pleasure and a pregnancy results. oh and remember after they give birth if they don't give up their children they are on their own as far as support. we have too many few loaders on welfare as it is. oh better idea chastity belts.
who gets to make the rules. the woman who has to carry the pregnancy to term gets to make them for herself. no a fetus is not like a newborn. the pictures you posted is a pregnancy late in term and almost ready to deliver. it looks nothing like the stage of development when most pregnancies are aborted.
"many" fetuses have survived outside the womb? do you know anything about late term abortions? get educated. late term abortions are wanted pregnancies. the baby in most all cases is severely compromised and most would not live once born. that choice, that agony is not your business, nor is it your judgment call.
yes children and newborns up to ten can't live unaided. as stated before that job can go to anyone that wants it. be it a dad, an uncle a foster care. it is not dependent on the womb of an unwilling mother. you can't be that obtuse to gloss over that fact, or do you just close your mind to it?
Yep.
Canada put no limits on abortion. It's the only country in the world which doesn't.
Yet, late-term abortions are EXTREMELY rare, usually because it could kill the mother or the foetus is severely compromised, like having anencephaly.
Women who carry late into their pregnancies want the foetus to survive.
gee I wonder how we can keep all these women pregnant who don't want to be? maybe we should send them to pregnancy and birthing camps. a state agency where we give blood tests to women every few weeks between the ages of 12 and 50 to monitor their reproduction. yep, forcing a woman to remain pregnant, give birth against her will, then making her raise the baby or give it up for adoption is the way to go for these woman who have sex for pleasure and a pregnancy results. oh and remember after they give birth if they don't give up their children they are on their own as far as support. we have too many few loaders on welfare as it is. oh better idea chastity belts.
Oooh, how about arresting women for miscarriages, or arresting and shackling women to hospital beds because they're not taking proper care of themselves while pregnant? What a utopia!
It's already happening.
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maybe we should send them to pregnancy and birthing camps. a state agency where we give blood tests to women every few weeks between the ages of 12 and 50 to monitor their reproduction. yep, forcing a woman to remain pregnant, give birth against her will, then making her raise the baby or give it up for adoption is the way to go for these woman who have sex for pleasure and a pregnancy results. oh and remember after they give birth if they don't give up their children they are on their own as far as support. we have too many few loaders on welfare as it is. oh better idea chastity belts. 
