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Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,330 posts, read 54,419,437 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
You need to read the previous posts from other posters who have consistently used the "woman's body" argument as their justification for being pro-choice. I use fetus/baby because many pro-choicers consider the "insert noun here -->" ______ a baby once it has exited the womb but before the umbilical cord is cut.
When do you consider the fetus a human being?
I've read the posts and they offer nothing to change my view, the only thing that would is convincing evidence that a fertilized egg is a human being, I don't believe it is.
As for when a fetus is a human being, that's something I'm more comfortable leaving up to more qualified people than myself, I haven't had to make that decison and am completely opposed to allowing a bunch of old men to make it for any woman. And no, that does not contradict my belief that a human being does not exist at the instant of conception.
I've read the posts and they offer nothing to change my view, the only thing that would is convincing evidence that a fertilized egg is a human being, I don't believe it is.
As for when a fetus is a human being, that's something I'm more comfortable leaving up to more qualified people than myself, I haven't had to make that decison and am completely opposed to allowing a bunch of old men to make it for any woman. And no, that does not contradict my belief that a human being does not exist at the instant of conception.
If you've read my posts, you've realized that I don't feel that the fetus is a human being at conception either. My contention is that allowing the mother to make the choice, along with her chosen experts, simply because it is her body seems to allow her to make that same choice even after the baby is out of the womb but before the umbilical cord is cut, for ANY reason including sex selection and for the convenience of not wanting to raise a handicapped child.
I would say the question of when a fetus becomes a human being is mostly a matter of legality. Right now (and into the foreseeable future) the law tells us that they have legal "rights" once they exit my vagina and hit the delivery table. I'm fine with that. (I think the whole idea of "rights" is rather overblown and ridiculous right now anyway. You have a right insomuch as you can win it from whoever is trying to oppose you. Fetuses can't really fight for rights.)
Do I trust the government to educate my kids? HELL NO.
Do I trust the government to provide for my family in case of emergency? NO.
Do I trust the government to make wise foreign policy decisions the reflect my family's (or even the nation's) best interests? NO.
Do I even trust the government not to dilute the value of its own currency? Not anymore.
Why would I trust it to regulate my childbearing, birth control, or sex life, again? I'm a married woman, too grouchy for idealistic socialist egalitarianism, and anti-abortionism strikes me as being at least as silly as veganism.
Please explain to me what the heck the difference is between a human and a human being? I mean really, is there a difference. Looking at a dictionary right now and there is no separate definition for human or human being. Seriously, human is human is human and unborn can be nothing other than human as it has human parents.
And what's your point- a fetus is a potential newborn, a newborn is a potential toddler, a toddler is a potential teenager, etc............. Either way, the humanity remains!
I would say the question of when a fetus becomes a human being is mostly a matter of legality. Right now (and into the foreseeable future) the law tells us that they have legal rights once they exit my vagina and hit the delivery table. I'm fine with that.
Do I trust the government to educate my kids? HELL NO.
Do I trust the government to provide for my family in case of emergency? NO.
Do I trust the government to make wise foreign policy decisions the reflect my family's (or even the nation's) best interests? NO.
Do I even trust the government not to dilute the value of its own currency? Not anymore.
Why would I trust it to regulate my childbearing, birth control, or sex life, again?
Yet you trust the law to tell you when a baby becomes a human being? What about science and biology-aren't they more equipped to tell you when that happens, which is from the moment of conception as two human parents cannot create something that isn't human. I've said it a millions times, slavery was once legal and blacks were considered "non-persons" and undeserving of the laws protection. Would you have been "fine with that" back then simply b/c thats what the law said?
Yet you trust the law to tell you when a baby becomes a human being? What about science and biology-aren't they more equipped to tell you when that happens, which is from the moment of conception as two human parents cannot create something that isn't human. I've said it a millions times, slavery was once legal and blacks were considered "non-persons" and undeserving of the laws protection. Would you have been "fine with that" back then simply b/c thats what the law said?
Now, as far as I know, slaves were never considered non-human. They WERE considered personal property, and did not have "rights" equivalent to whites. There would still be slavery if it hadn't benefitted certain white social classes to oppose it for their own political ends.
But seriously, I don't actually care that much about slavery. It still goes on, it will continue till the end of days.
I'm sure I wouldn't have cared much about it then, either. I'm not universalistic enough to believe I can dictate magical standards of morality to the entire world. Sorry. I leave that to the cultural marxists these-a-days.
I've read the posts and they offer nothing to change my view, the only thing that would is convincing evidence that a fertilized egg is a human being, I don't believe it is.
As for when a fetus is a human being, that's something I'm more comfortable leaving up to more qualified people than myself, I haven't had to make that decison and am completely opposed to allowing a bunch of old men to make it for any woman. And no, that does not contradict my belief that a human being does not exist at the instant of conception.
Yet "a bunch of old men" gave us the right in the first place.
One doesn't have to have special qualifications to know that what a human mother is carrying in her belly is a human baby. Even a young child knows that when they point at a pregnant belly and joyfully say "BABY". A mother in a wanted pregnancy knows it's a human baby when they joyfully say "My baby just kicked me!", not "my potential human being just kicked me." Pro choice rhetoric is all about playing on words and dehumanizing unborn babies so as to further their position.
Once again, this isn't about women eliminating fertilized eggs b/c by the time a woman even learns she is pregnant and seeks an abortion, her baby is already very human looking and has a beating heart. Quit focusing on the fertilized egg- women aren't aborting fertilized eggs!!
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,330 posts, read 54,419,437 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
If you've read my posts, you've realized that I don't feel that the fetus is a human being at conception either. My contention is that allowing the mother to make the choice, along with her chosen experts, simply because it is her body seems to allow her to make that same choice even after the baby is out of the womb but before the umbilical cord is cut, for ANY reason including sex selection and for the convenience of not wanting to raise a handicapped child.
As I've said before I think that's two different issues. Working on the belief that a human being does not exist at the moment of conception I think the legal term for abortion should be determined medically, not politically. I'm not saying that term should be determined by each individual, simply that barring a life threatening condition they should make their personal decision within that term.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,330 posts, read 54,419,437 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOJOG
Yet "a bunch of old men" gave us the right in the first place.
One doesn't have to have special qualifications to know that what a human mother is carrying in her belly is a human baby. Even a young child knows that when they point at a pregnant belly and joyfully say "BABY". A mother in a wanted pregnancy knows it's a human baby when they joyfully say "My baby just kicked me!", not "my potential human being just kicked me." Pro choice rhetoric is all about playing on words and dehumanizing unborn babies so as to further their position.
Once again, this isn't about women eliminating fertilized eggs b/c by the time a woman even learns she is pregnant and seeks an abortion, her baby is already very human looking and has a beating heart. Quit focusing on the fertilized egg- women aren't aborting fertilized eggs!!
All your opinion which is fine, but no basis to make it the rule for everyone in the country.
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