Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I disagree with your first sentence. The reason that I've seen many give for the existence of the institution is that they no longer view the criminal as a human being. Of course your second sentence is factual.
to the OP, you don't have to worry, this issue will never be brought up again. At least not in White House/Congress. It's just something to run on....Same as what religion you are...just something to run on...
....that being said, I find it troubling that you actually think most abortions are performed b/c of rape. You should do some research.
(mouseketeer is one of the exceptions since he supports the mothers right to choose an abortion for any reason up until the umbilical cord is cut)
Someone who believes such a thing has no idea what birth is all about and has obviously never given birth
Have you ever heard of a lotus birth? Or folks like myself who don't believe in cutting the umbilical cord right away? If you are going to debate the sanctity of life atleast know what birth is all about.
Oh, about the pro-life billboards. I think they are great and I would put one up myself.
If you read this thread, the question has been answered many times.
Anyone who has responded has indicated that until the fetus is viable.
What's so difficult to understand about the response, or are you simply playing obtuse?
And then I've asked several more times...what happens when medical science pushes back the date at which a baby becomes viable? 21 weeks...18 weeks...12 weeks...what about when they can pull a 1 week old baby and put it in an artificial womb and save it at that point? Would this effect your own views? Or should we just make a law that we can kill a baby up to the point where medical science can make it viable now in 2008?
Someone who believes such a thing has no idea what birth is all about and has obviously never given birth
Have you ever heard of a lotus birth? Or folks like myself who don't believe in cutting the umbilical cord right away? If you are going to debate the sanctity of life atleast know what birth is all about.
Oh, about the pro-life billboards. I think they are great and I would put one up myself.
I may have made an assumption without knowing the facts. Mouseketeer might be a female. If I was wrong I apologize to Mouseketeer.
Either way, at least he/she is intellectually honest about his/her pro-choice stance. However, I would like for him/her to be present if it came to this and see how its done. Minds might be changed.
[quote=Amaznjohn;2679094]I may have made an assumption without knowing the facts. Mouseketeer might be a female. If I was wrong I apologize to Mouseketeer.
Either way, at least he/she is intellectually honest about his/her pro-choice stance. However, I would like for him/her to be present if it came to this and see how its done. Minds might be changed.[/QUOTe
I am indeed female. And I do know the gore and horrific details. I did pathology as a sub-subject at University ( as part of an Anthropology degree) so the horrors of such a procedure are not lost on me. I saw a victim of suicide on a slab once, She was 7 months pregnant and we had to watch our professor do the autopsy. It was harrowing and incredibly painful.
And I would not be in any way happy and gleeful for such a procedure either. There is nothing remotely nice about abortions. I know that, so do women who have them.
I am not as mentioned an infanticide monster and feel the current legal limit is actually about right.
Still in very extreme circumstances should the appalling dilemma of who should be prioritised , the mother or the unborn child I would personally always chose the mother.
To me life truly begins with birth. And yes I do accept that in the later stages of a pregnancy a "baby" starts to take shape properly. It does not change my opinion.
That is not to say that I do not find abortions a terrible waste , and yes even repugnant in the later terms.
I too, it may come as a surprise have feelings and emotions like the rest of you and yes even morals.
I just feel that philosophically speaking my priority will always be the well being of the person who is born first no matter how the decision may be. Tough appalling choices have to be made sometimes and to me the mental, psychological and physical well being of the woman ALWAYS come first.
I am sorry this upsets people. It upsets me too. But I have thought about this long and hard believe me. This is not a liberal knee-jerk reaction to a social issue.
I actually find it terribly sad that there are any abortions at all. In a perfect world no foetus would ever be aborted, no woman would ever fall pregnant with an unwanted child.
All women in a perfect world would have a baby with a man they love, who loves them and will sail into a happy blissful future of family.
Being pro-choice does not make me pro-abortion. Nobody I know is pro-abortion.
I just do not see forcing a woman to carry a foetus to term and giving birth to it against her will as anything but barbaric and the worst infringement of the basic human rights to reproductive rights.
Abortion is one of the most terrible and difficult decisions a woman will ever take. It is not something done lightly by the very, very vast majority of women.
But if one unborn foetus's rights are in the balance with a born woman then to me there is no question that the woman comes first.
As horrible, regrettable and painful as it may be. It makes me weep thinking of women forced into that position but I support their decision. Because only they and they alone know what they can endure. Nobody else.
All your opinion which is fine, but no basis to make it the rule for everyone in the country.
What part of this was opinon?
Fact: men decided Roe V Wade
Fact: Human parents create human babies
Fact: I have never in my life heart a pregnant women state "Wow, my non-person, clump of cells just kicked me." Neither have I ever heard a child state "Non-Person" or "clump of cells" while pointing at a pregnant belly.
We all know they are babies, we just pick and choose based on wantedness whether we will call them babies.
I may have made an assumption without knowing the facts. Mouseketeer might be a female. If I was wrong I apologize to Mouseketeer.
Either way, at least he/she is intellectually honest about his/her pro-choice stance. However, I would like for him/her to be present if it came to this and see how its done. Minds might be changed.[/QUOTe
I am indeed female. And I do know the gore and horrific details. I did pathology as a sub-subject at University ( as part of an Anthropology degree) so the horrors of such a procedure are not lost on me. I saw a victim of suicide on a slab once, She was 7 months pregnant and we had to watch our professor do the autopsy. It was harrowing and incredibly painful.
And I would not be in any way happy and gleeful for such a procedure either. There is nothing remotely nice about abortions. I know that, so do women who have them.
I am not as mentioned an infanticide monster and feel the current legal limit is actually about right.
Still in very extreme circumstances should the appalling dilemma of who should be prioritised , the mother or the unborn child I would personally always chose the mother.
To me life truly begins with birth. And yes I do accept that in the later stages of a pregnancy a "baby" starts to take shape properly. It does not change my opinion.
That is not to say that I do not find abortions a terrible waste , and yes even repugnant in the later terms.
I too, it may come as a surprise have feelings and emotions like the rest of you and yes even morals.
I just feel that philosophically speaking my priority will always be the well being of the person who is born first no matter how the decision may be. Tough appalling choices have to be made sometimes and to me the mental, psychological and physical well being of the woman ALWAYS come first.
I am sorry this upsets people. It upsets me too. But I have thought about this long and hard believe me. This is not a liberal knee-jerk reaction to a social issue.
I actually find it terribly sad that there are any abortions at all. In a perfect world no foetus would ever be aborted, no woman would ever fall pregnant with an unwanted child.
All women in a perfect world would have a baby with a man they love, who loves them and will sail into a happy blissful future of family.
Being pro-choice does not make me pro-abortion. Nobody I know is pro-abortion.
I just do not see forcing a woman to carry a foetus to term and giving birth to it against her will as anything but barbaric and the worst infringement of the basic human rights to reproductive rights.
Abortion is one of the most terrible and difficult decisions a woman will ever take. It is not something done lightly by the very, very vast majority of women.
But if one unborn foetus's rights are in the balance with a born woman then to me there is no question that the woman comes first.
As horrible, regrettable and painful as it may be. It makes me weep thinking of women forced into that position but I support their decision. Because only they and they alone know what they can endure. Nobody else.
Of course it's a difficult decision, I'm sure it would be difficult for a father to make the choice to kill his toddler to collect a life insurance policy. Who's denying that killing a life is difficult? And to state that life doesn't begin till birth is just completely ignoring Scientific fact. Biological growth begins at the moment of conception, which proves the unborn is alive. There is no period of non-life. Life doesn't begin at some stage of development, it's alive at every stage!
Also, no one forces motherhood on a woman unless she was raped. Partaking in pro-creative activity is a choice. If a pregnancy occurs, the decision was already made.
Lastly, everyone is so quick to point out the hard cases such as rape and a woman's life being threatened by her pregnancy, but lets remember that we are then dealing with thousands of abortions a year (if even that), not over a million which is the rate today. I get tired of hearing about those cases as if that should allow all women to choose abortion. I think making those exceptions would be middle ground that many pro-lifers could almost live with. Throwing away your children on the otherhand b/c they are inconvenient is what I'd call barbaric, not forcing poor innocent women to give birth.
First of all.. you are speaking in a PHYSICAL sense..
Teh conversation between the "souls" doesn't happen in our physical realm. If you are spiritual, as I am, youknow that life decisions are made by our subcouncious minds ALL The time..
For example.. I truly believe that those born with diseases and such CHOSE to have those things in their life to learn and grow as a spirit.. it's the reason I believe life is so hard.. Now, our concious minds certainly wouldn't choose ANY of our ailments, challenges etc.
There is no actual conversation in the way of words!
And again .. you miss the point.. you believe what you believe.. and YOU believe that by what I believe I'm forcing MY beliefs onto the unborn child.. however.. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT!!! So.. therefore I make my choices on this physical level following my beliefs.. and have no right to tell someone how to make their own choices
If you got pregnant unexpectedly YOU wuold choose NOT to have an abortion because you feel that it's wrong. I would chose NOT to have an abortion because I would believe it was a blessing and I wouldn't want to abort the baby.. HOWEVER.. I have NO right , regardless of when or what I think of the fetus as..to force what I believe or what YOU believe on to anyoen else.
When someone makes thier choices.. they will live with their consequences.. wether it be guilt or what have you.. adn again.. I don't believe that the child will never be born.. not just now..
Also.. from a spiritual point of view, I believe when tragedy strikes a person.. say a horrible vehicle accident that would be painful, the soul leaves the body before that real pain is experienced.. and so as cruel as you make abortion sound with the "vaccuum" and all.. I feel taht once it is determined by the woman to abort the fetus the soul leaves permanately and will not feel any pain.
AGain.. my beliefs.. but I have no right to force YOU to make decisions based on what I believe.. nor do you have a right to force decisions on anyone based on what YOU believe...
I don't even know how to respond to this, though believe me, I'd love to believe that people get to leave their bodies before pain is felt. I'm sure women would also love to believe that their babies don't feel pain during an abortion, but if you viewed the video "A Silent Scream", you would see that this baby felt excrutiating pain as she opened her mouth as if to scream while frantically attempting to get away from the abortionists vacuum. In fact, the very doctor who taped this abortion never performed an abortion again after viewing the pain he put that baby through. We can tell ourselves all day long whatever it takes to deny the truth, but the reality remains the same.
A good rule of thumb is to never impart restrictions on others that you would not want imposed on yourself.
I am male and cannot have babies. I should not force any descision concerning abortion on any woman. If I were female I would want to have the same control over my body as any male.
I wonder what the effect on this discussion a law to force any male proven genetically to be the father to support the woman and child until the child was an adult. I mean FORCE as in garnishment of wages or commitment to slave labor for the male.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
