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Jade and Zimbochick - you are both missing the point.
OF COURSE, rape doesn't always involve those factors. And you cannot always protect yourself enough to avoid bad things from happening. But you can minimize the potential for something bad happening, and that's what we need to teach young people, particularly women.
But go ahead and pretend that you would both tell your own daughters that it's okay to drink until you're falling down drunk or black out, and if something bad happens to them - it's not their fault.
But go ahead and pretend that you would both tell your own daughters that it's okay to drink until you're falling down drunk or black out, and if something bad happens to them - it's not their fault.
Of course that's all you've got. The second part of the discussion, an extremely important part for the sake of young people everywhere, doesn't interest you. You couldn't care less. It doesn't fit your narrative.
You know most rapes are acquaintance or friend rapes by someone the victims knows. Being at home or at a friend's place does not mean you won't get raped. Neither does being in the presence of people you know also doesn't mean you won't get raped. So the best way to prevent rape is for rapists not to do it.
Of course that's all you've got. The second part of the discussion, an extremely important part for the sake of young people everywhere, doesn't interest you. You couldn't care less. It doesn't fit your narrative.
Wow, you have all the answers, and you can read my mind. Congratulations.
It couldn't be that I totally disagree with your message, but am tired of repeating myself?
A hangover and some good-natured ribbing the day after. That's what happened to people who passed out drunk when I was young. Of course, we tended to exclude psychopaths from the circles I moved in.
You're a pretty horrible person, aren't you?
Disagreeing with the groupthink does not make me "a pretty horrible person". Obviously, I don't support rape (which, if I read correctly, she wasn't raped....she was sexually assaulted) and I don't agree with what Brock did.
However, I also believe that people should avoid putting themselves in situations that could lead to these kinds of things happening. I used to party a lot, but never once did I ever pass out in the back of a dark alley. I took precautions to not have that happen to avoid getting robbed, raped (men get raped too), or worse.
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Originally Posted by MPowering1
Learned her lesson? How sick.
Listen, I'm in the vast minority here because I think there needs to be a major discussion around binge drinking of young men and women. It's particularly dangerous for young women to do because it leaves them in such a vulnerable position.
Bingo. She should have been more careful.
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We teach our children to drive defensively. We tell them not to leave their purse in the shopping cart and walk away to get something. We tell them not to leave expensive items in their car where they can be seen, and to make sure their doors are locked. We tell them if they're at a bar and turn their back on their drink for any period of time, you're done with the drink. But for some reason the minute you mention young women can do a lot in the way of staying safe by not drinking to the point of blacking out, you're a victim blamer, even though it's said in general and not with regard to this particular case/victim.
But your attitude is horrendous. Rape isn't a lesson to be learned. The only lesson that needs to be learned is on the part of the criminal who raped her.
I blame the perp as well, but I do think the victim should have taken better precautions. Hopefully, she will remember to do that in the future since she was burned by her poor decision-making.
Live and learn.
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Originally Posted by ATG5
That or maybe a gentleman would see her in her predicament and help her.
Who knows, the woman could've passed out because she was drunk, because she didn't take her insinlin, because she slipped and hit her head...
Yeah, but what do we know? We were raised right.
To be fair, we don't know the whole story. Not sure if this has already been debunked, but isn't it possible that she had been awake (albeit very drunk), met this also very drunk guy, started making out with him, then passed out?
If that's the case, there's really no victim to defend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by budlight
Quick question, have you had a sister, mother, cousin, any female friends, get drunk? Should being raped be the lesson they should have learned after drinking?
My mother doesn't drink. I have no sister. My female friends do drink, but they don't make the kinds of decisions that this girl did.
Also, was it really a rape? My understanding was that he just fingered her (which is not rape).
Sadly yes. You put that same passed out girl in any ghetto neighborhood in America or in the rough neighborhoods of Mexico, South America, India, the Middle East and Africa... and most likely she will be raped. In fact, she doesn't even have to be passed out in order to be sexually assaulted. Look at what is happening in places where the Syrian refugees have gone, like in Sweden and Germany. There are the local European women there being physically accosted by the refugees who are unfamiliar with the new culture they have been placed in. And what about that young woman who died from the gang rape on the bus? Or the recent gang rape of the woman by 30+ men in Brazil?
Actually you have to look a little bit more in context. The victim didn't go to a ghetto neighborhood in the US, or Mexico, South America, India, she was in Stanford University for chrissakes, it's about as liberal a university as you'll find anywhere in the US.
I'd also argue that it's not "all men" some men yes, not all. Part of the issue is that in situations like the one in Stanford, and similar, where there is an appearance that the person could be partly to blame, that people make statements like "Well the guy wasn't entirely to blame, he was only getting 20 minutes of action". Until we hold men accountable for their behaviors, then things will never change, and I don't want to change the world, just my small corner of it known as the USA. Blaming the victim provides people like this puke in Stanford to hide behind a belief perpetuated by people like you, that men are slaves to their hormones.
I'm a man, and I am not a slave to my hormones. Anyone claiming they are are just being lazy and undisciplined and again attempting to shift blame from where it lies. There is no excuse for raping someone, none, never. It's the biggest pile of horse pucky that after a certain point guys can't control themselves, they can, they choose not to.
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Originally Posted by miu
Otherwise, if I leave my house unlocked and unattended... who is to blame if I get burglarized?
The burglar, who probably doesn't care whether you've locked your house.
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Originally Posted by miu
As to clothing, what is the point of a woman dressing provocatively, if it isn't to show off her body and attract male attention?
Attracting male attention does not mean that they're available for immediate copulation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miu
Then finally, no one has mentioned this, but in soap operas (General Hospital and I've seen it in a Spanish soap opera too), romance novels and erotic literature, there is a fairly common storyline of what starts out as a rape ending in the woman being turned on and being satisfied. Some couples role-play this too. Men seem to be more fortunate in being more easily satisfied by sex, and I do think that in situations of date rape, while the man is completely wrong, the brain in his penis is telling him that the great sex he is giving her will persuade her that she wants it. Stupid thinking yes, but in the heat of the moment and if alcohol or drugs are involved, he continues with the forced sex.
Someone having a "Rape Fantasy" does not mean they want to be raped they are entirely different situations. Rape fantasies often include things like cunnilingus, and an orgasm for the woman which aren't high on the rapists list of activities. They are also consensual, because while they may initially object, there is a yielding in the fantasy. The two should not be confused as the same, because the act of rape and the rape fantasy are only superficially similar.
I'm calling a big BS on the male aspect. No your brain does not descend to your penis. Although it does make a convenient excuse.
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Originally Posted by miu
Men and women have different sex drives. One study suggests that men think about sex twice as often as women. Otherwise, the problem with men is that it is so obvious to them when they are turned on because their sex organs are on the outside. Having an erection is hard to ignore. Anyway, I am so glad to be a woman and not a man.
Women are so obvious when turned on (and I mean turned on, not a little stimulated), anyone with a good sense of smell can tell (shocking I know, but I do have a good sense of smell). It's even more obvious when naked, and you know as well as I do that getting turned on produces some very easy to determine tactile cues. As far as an erection being turned on, it's one indication but it's not proof positive, I wake up every morning with the famous morning wood, I'm not especially turned on when I wake up, normally I need to pee real bad, I can be persuaded (assuming I don't have to be anywhere), but to be frank I can be persuaded 10 minutes (or less) after finishing the last time, but an erection is not proof positive of being sexually aroused, it's only one indication and there can be lots of reasons why men get erections, not all are sexual.
But at the end of the day, if a woman puts herself in a vulnerable position (passed out drunk) in a strange environment (not within the safety of her home or a friend's place) and without the company of friends, if she does get robbed, assaulted or raped... what good does it do to put the blame solely on the perpetrators? My comments are just to say that no woman should be counting on gentlemanly behaviour from every single man or person around her when she is inebriated and all by herself.
So you can argue all you like about where the blame should be distributed, but what does it matter after a rape occurs. The horse has long left the barn. But my posts are about trying to prevent future rapes. And a harsher punishment for Turner isn't going to stop future campus rapes. Women going to these parties need to stick together and only drink moderately. And not dress too sexy either... since when has anyone ever met their soulmate at these bashes? Women have to also stop being okay with the current casual hookup culture. FWB's are only for the benefit of the guys.
But you give away a weakness in your argument in your own argument. "if she gets robbed, assaults or raped."
See, being drunk, in her case, really isn't the key factor since it doesn't indicate specific results. Just being drunk. A drunken night can end in nothing more than a hangover (as many do), or an assault or some other crime. So when dealing with the blame for an action, you can't place it on something that isn't the clear cause of it. So, if rape is the action, you have to find the root cause. You can say 'had she not been there and drunk it wouldn't have happened' but that's not the case. There's the chance everything else could have happened, and she hand't been raped, as was probably the case for dozens of other girls at the part.
Conversely, many rapes happen when people choose to stay home.
There isn't much of a discussion to be had on who is responsible for rape. It's the rapist. Their actions alone are what determine the outcome. A rapist sees a dunk girl as an opportunity. A gentleman sees a drunk girl as a person in need.
Also, a sizable chunk of one night stands and casual hook-ups actually do end up becoming a long term relationship. You don't hear those stories because they aren't especially romantic, but that's life.
Sadly yes. You put that same passed out girl in any ghetto neighborhood in America or in the rough neighborhoods of Mexico, South America, India, the Middle East and Africa... and most likely she will be raped. In fact, she doesn't even have to be passed out in order to be sexually assaulted. Look at what is happening in places where the Syrian refugees have gone, like in Sweden and Germany. There are the local European women there being physically accosted by the refugees who are unfamiliar with the new culture they have been placed in. And what about that young woman who died from the gang rape on the bus? Or the recent gang rape of the woman by 30+ men in Brazil?
Otherwise, if I leave my house unlocked and unattended... who is to blame if I get burglarized?
As to clothing, what is the point of a woman dressing provocatively, if it isn't to show off her body and attract male attention?
Then finally, no one has mentioned this, but in soap operas (General Hospital and I've seen it in a Spanish soap opera too), romance novels and erotic literature, there is a fairly common storyline of what starts out as a rape ending in the woman being turned on and being satisfied. Some couples role-play this too. Men seem to be more fortunate in being more easily satisfied by sex, and I do think that in situations of date rape, while the man is completely wrong, the brain in his penis is telling him that the great sex he is giving her will persuade her that she wants it. Stupid thinking yes, but in the heat of the moment and if alcohol or drugs are involved, he continues with the forced sex.
Men and women have different sex drives. One study suggests that men think about sex twice as often as women. Otherwise, the problem with men is that it is so obvious to them when they are turned on because their sex organs are on the outside. Having an erection is hard to ignore. Anyway, I am so glad to be a woman and not a man.
Jade and Zimbochick - you are both missing the point.
OF COURSE, rape doesn't always involve those factors. And you cannot always protect yourself enough to avoid bad things from happening. But you can minimize the potential for something bad happening, and that's what we need to teach young people, particularly women.
But go ahead and pretend that you would both tell your own daughters that it's okay to drink until you're falling down drunk or black out, and if something bad happens to them - it's not their fault.
Bad parenting 101.
Well, here we go, blaming the parents! It had to happen.
What is your inside knowledge that this young woman's parents told her "that it's okay to drink until you're falling down drunk or black out, and if something bad happens to them - it's not (your) fault."?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akonyo
Disagreeing with the groupthink does not make me "a pretty horrible person". Obviously, I don't support rape (which, if I read correctly, she wasn't raped....she was sexually assaulted) and I don't agree with what Brock did.
However, I also believe that people should avoid putting themselves in situations that could lead to these kinds of things happening. I used to party a lot, but never once did I ever pass out in the back of a dark alley. I took precautions to not have that happen to avoid getting robbed, raped (men get raped too), or worse.
Bingo. She should have been more careful.
I blame the perp as well, but I do think the victim should have taken better precautions. Hopefully, she will remember to do that in the future since she was burned by her poor decision-making.
Live and learn.
To be fair, we don't know the whole story. Not sure if this has already been debunked, but isn't it possible that she had been awake (albeit very drunk), met this also very drunk guy, started making out with him, then passed out?
If that's the case, there's really no victim to defend.
My mother doesn't drink. I have no sister. My female friends do drink, but they don't make the kinds of decisions that this girl did.
Also, was it really a rape? My understanding was that he just fingered her (which is not rape).
Bully for you!
As well? Are you saying you think it was primarily the victim's fault?
Seriously? Rape is OK if the attackee is awake at the beginning? What about consent?
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