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Speaking of Supreme Court justices and Roe vs Wade, can we talk about the need for common sense abortion control?
Probably not. Reasonable restrictions on birth control is just as impossible to discuss as reasonable restrictions on guns is.
Just sayin
We can discuss birth control - except that there are states & localities that insist that talking about birth control is the same thing as approving of universal access to birth control for everyone @ whatever age, & that it leads directly to sin, birth out of wedlock, sour milk & all kinds of spectacular social & moral & theological problems, World without end.
The Liberal side of the argument is that if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, or carry to term, or can't do so without endangering her life, then an early abortion (in the first trimester) should be available to her. Repeated abortion as birth control, however, is not an optimum choice. I'd prefer medical counseling to find the best birth control possible for a woman (or couple, or family) who knows she/they don't want children in the short term.
These & other conflicting stances cause a lot of political turmoil in Congress & the courts. We need to resolve this question, part of the set of issues that brought on the Roe v. Wade ruling in the first place.
Bull$hit. I want to frame the debate precisely around the fetus. The pro-choice movement lost its way when it failed to keep the debate squarely on the collection of cells that is not a realized person, aka, the fetus. Let’s move it back there. I’m all for it. A sperm cell is not a human being. An egg is not a human being. When they merge, the result is not a human being. And won’t be until it is fully formed and born. The only way you conclude it IS a human being is to invoke mysticism, and that is not going to fly in 2018.
Bull$hit yourself . You are the one making references to pro lifers wanting to stick their hands up vaginas and using the hashtag about keeping hands out of vaginas . Read your own posts before spouting .
Granted, you are honest enough to admit to the position that a fetus is just like a wart to be disposed of if it's unwanted , so I'll give you that. But let's see how that stance fares with mainstream America if every pro choice person were to admit to the same attitude .
Let's face it . If the nation were to decide to settle this once and for all by a national referendum by popular vote, with the winning side getting a constitutional amendment to get ratified, but we put ALL the facts on the table to educate the public before the vote, pro choice would lose hands down. We start with how many abortions are the result of rape, medical necessity , severe deformities , and simple convenience ones because the pregnant woman didn't want to have a child . Then we look at the fetus at every stage of development and decide if it is a life or just a wart or tumor like lump of cells, from conception until birth, every week . Then we describe the methods of aborting the fetus, and how the fetus is disposed of . THEN, when all the facts are out there , THEN we vote with an educated populace . Pro lifers win that 70-30 , easily . Abortion controls in some substantial form would be the law of the land fairly quickly .
Pro choicers never win when all the facts are presented and the debate is just on them . It is exactly WHY the pro choice movement abandoned that tactic and went to demonizing the opposition instead and arguing about privacy rights . Because they get that they can't win that debate .
Last edited by wallflash; 07-08-2018 at 07:09 PM..
Now you're getting it. The decision whether or not to abort a fetus should be 100% a personal, private decision with no input from the State. We are not a Sharia nation. Let's not presume that our religious views must be imposed on others. Everyone must be free to decide for themselves whether or not to utilize an abortion to remove a fetus.
Having said that, the State should not be paying for this procedure either. All funds for abortions, which is an elective procedure, should be provided 100% by the person seeking the abortion.
& when it's not an elective procedure - as when the attending physician/medical team recommends abortion (the fetus is dead or severely genetically compromised, or brain dead, or carrying to term will likely maim or kill the woman) - then who pays?
If we're (the US) going to put such a heavy price on elective abortion, that seems to me all the more reason to distribute birth control information & devices widely, if the point of the exercise is to make sure that the state doesn't wind up paying for an elective abortion. Or is there some other goal in mind?
Very seldom are they done late term, as others have pointed out the result of medical issues.
Stop assuming the women getting abortions are heartless charlatans.
I have made no remark about such women being heartless charlatans . If you can't keep the discussion on what I do say and avoid making idiotic and unfounded rants as a substitute for facts, please don't waste my time responding to what I say. I have no use for people who simply make crap up when they have nothing else to offer .
Bull$hit yourself . You are the one making references to pro lifers wanting to stick their hands up vaginas and using the hashtag about keeping hands out of vaginas . Read your own posts before spouting .
Granted, you are honest enough to admit to the position that a fetus is just like a wart to be disposed of if it's unwanted , so I'll give you that. But let's see how that stance fares with mainstream America if every pro choice person were to admit to the same attitude .
Let's face it . If the nation were to decide to settle this once and for all by a national referendum by popular vote, with the winning side getting a constitutional amendment to get ratified, but we put ALL the facts on the table to educate the public before the vote, pro choice would lose hands down. We start with how many abortions are the result of rape, medical necessity , severe deformities , and simple convenience ones because the pregnant woman didn't want to have a child . Then we look at the fetus at every stage of development and decide if it is a life or just a wart or tumor like lump of cells, from conception until birth, every week . Then we describe the methods of aborting the fetus, and how the fetus is disposed of . THEN, when all the facts are out there , THEN we vote with an educated populace . Pro lifers win that 70-30 , easily . Abortion controls in some fairly severe form would be the law of the land fairly quickly .
Pro choicers never win when all the facts are presented and the debate is just on them . It is exactly WHY the pro choice movement abandoned that tactic and went to demonizing the opposition instead and arguing about privacy rights . Because they get that they can't win that debate .
But what if some Americans are scared of abortions or just want to eliminate them completely? Shouldn't their concerns be important and respected?
Some US voters? Sure, but realistically, we live in a republic. Government is a shared right & responsibility, & it tries to be responsive. Yes, every vote counts. However, dealing with abortion is a messy topic & touches a lot of hot buttons - human destiny, reproduction, personal lives @ their most intimate, family, religion, morality, church stances & so on.
From what I've seen, in the decades since Roe was decided, the majority of US voters think that abortion is permissible under some circumstances - in the first trimester of the pregnancy or for cases of rape &/or the health or life of the woman. That's been a long time now, as these things are measured. If there wasn't a groundswell of opposition in the first five or ten years after Roe, I don't think there ever is going to be one that's politically effective sufficiently to push overriding legislation through Congress. Recent history of Congress since, say the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, they've apparently bitten the poisoned apple & are happily nodding off, appeasing their big donors & supporters, & otherwise ducking decision-making.
You paid no attention to where I said we took time to give everyone the facts . Current approval ratings of abortion are not based on a nationwide in depth public discussion of all aspects of abortion, and you know it . It is based largely on the premise that deciding to terminate is a privacy issue, with the aspects I spoke of largely ignored .
I have made no remark about such women being heartless charlatans . If you can't keep the discussion on what I do say and avoid making idiotic and unfounded rants as a substitute for facts, please don't waste my time responding to what I say. I have no use for people who simply make crap up when they have nothing else to offer .
You've really presented nothing.
You think in a national referendum pro-life would win. It wouldn't.
Just like gay marriage, the beauty of civilization has carried us beyond the realm of those who wish to hold us in the supersticious religious past.
[quote=Marc Paolella;52433066]It is perfectly acceptable to have an abortion for any personal reason you can fathom, including convenience. If one wants to prevent a future life, then abortion is the simple medical procedure to make that happen. A woman has the right to decide on whether and when to bring new life into the world. Unless she is your wife or girlfriend, or someone else who asks your opinion, you have absolutely nothing to say about it.
To claim that you do have input into a stranger’s exercise of this right means you are imposing your religious beliefs, and they ARE religious beliefs, on others. That, my friend is Sharia. Forcing other free citizens to bend to your will, no matter how irrational. Don’t do that. Not in my free country. #handsoutofmyvagine/QUOTE]
Where did I say I wanted to impose my beliefs on others via legislation?
Quote me.
And for the record, I said I wasn't particularly religious.
Meaning that I'm agnostic....I don't subscribe to any particular religion, not do I attend any church.
However, I stop short of calling myself an Atheist, largely because I'm humble enough to realize that I have no clue about what may be out there as far as higher powers go.
That and it take a certain amount of faith in your non-belief to call yourself an Atheist......an I don't possess that amount of faith in either direction.
So....now that that's cleared up....you can cool your jets on the whole Sharia thing.
My right to state my opinion on the subject comes from the same place that yours does.
The 1st amendment to the US Constitution.
But your wanting to silence my opinion because you don't agree with it only illustates that you're the one who wants to impose your views on others.
You think in a national referendum pro-life would win. It wouldn't.
Just like gay marriage, the beauty of civilization has carried us beyond the realm of those who wish to hold us in the supersticious religious past.
Abortion is here to stay.
Yes, abortion is here to stay . Which is why the screams and cries of the left are so false .
But they is no equivalency between people making the choice that there is no reason to limit same sex marriage and a debate with all facts about abortion, and I think you know it . Pro choicers fear the debate being about the fetus and the actual act of an abortion. It is why they try to portray pro lifers as weirdos with an obsession with women's vaginas, because they know they can't win an honest debate on the facts . Abortion disturbs people. Abundant , open, and brutal in depth facts about abortion and why they are largely being done would disturb them even more , and few pro choicers want to go there . The publics general ignorance about the in depth facts of abortion is bliss to the pro choice crowd, and they want to keep it that way .
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If one, then the other
