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It's not "my" version. Its what happened. Here's the short version:
In retaliation for Ukraine considering joining NATO (and faced with the possibility of losing access to the military port in Sevastopol - home of the Black Sea Fleet), Russia decided it would annex Crimea, which is part of the sovereign nation Ukraine. Russia spread a bunch of misinformation in Crimea (which has a large Russian speaking population and diaspora). It then armed Ukrainian rebels (who promptly shot down a civilian airliner, killing 300 civilians, including 80 children) and sent in non-uniformed Russian troops in violation of the Geneva Convention to secure the region.
Crimea (and east Ukraine) has been at odds with Kiev for some time, dating back to the Soviet breakup. Crimea has especially been at odds with Kiev since Kiev dissolved it of its special autonomous status it had. This conflict is merely a continuation of the never solved border issues started by the Soviet breakup. The borders of the Soviet republics were drawn by Soviet leaders for the purpose of the Soviet Union, not to the benefit of anyone living in the USSR. This is one of many border conflicts that continue to this day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEPLimey
Once Russian troops held seized Ukrainian territory, they orchestrated a referendum, rampant with fraud, without any international observers (but supervised by armed Russian troops), and in contravention to Ukranian law and international norms, in a transparent attempt to legitimize the annexation of Crimea. It has been subsequently denounced by the EU, US, and UN as woefully illegitimate.
We have no idea if there was fraud there or not, no one was there to observe. But fact is that most people did not leave Crimea for Ukraine, and most of the Ukrainian military there jumped sides to Russia. Since this event, Ukraine has been very harsh on the citizens of Crimea, certainly that is not enticing them to want to be under Ukrainian control again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEPLimey
Incidentally, contrary to your suggestion, the "Russian people" (don't you mean Ukranian?) were not "cut out of the democratic process because the elected leader was overthrown" - Yanukovich was ousted in accordance with Ukrainian law.
Russian ethnically, Ukrainian by nationality. I mean if the US can have African Americans, most of which never stepped foot in Africa, I am sure Ukraine can have ethnic Russians; right?
The elected leader was overthrow, and he was not removed by lawful means, you can easily review the Ukrainian constitution yourself and please identify when those procedures ever took place. Fact is that even though Yanukovich was elected is a fair election, those who voted against him overthrew him (it be like the people of Mississippi overthrowing Obama and putting McCain in power). His main support was Crimea and east Ukraine, coincidentally the same areas that rebelled. There has been an east-west struggle in Ukraine since 1991, with the further east you go, the more pro-Russia it becomes. This is the second time the candidate the voted for having been overthrown, and after two times, I imagine any place would get sick and tired of this "democracy"; would you reside in a place that a portion of the people kept overthrowing your democratically elected president? Or would you want to break away from such a cluster f**k?
Have you ever been to Ukraine? Just wondering as you seem oblivious to any of the internal issues there, yet come on here and make some absurd, half-assed statements on the place. Most of my family is from there, many still reside there.
Crimea (and east Ukraine) has been at odds with Kiev for some time, dating back to the Soviet breakup. Crimea has especially been at odds with Kiev since Kiev dissolved it of its special autonomous status it had. This conflict is merely a continuation of the never solved border issues started by the Soviet breakup. The borders of the Soviet republics were drawn by Soviet leaders for the purpose of the Soviet Union, not to the benefit of anyone living in the USSR. This is one of many border conflicts that continue to this day.
Agreed, but so what? Crimea has been Ukainian territory since 1964 and was recognized as part of the Ukraine at the time of the Soviet breakup. Whether or not there was acrimony does not change that fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus
We have no idea if there was fraud there or not, no one was there to observe. But fact is that most people did not leave Crimea for Ukraine, and most of the Ukrainian military there jumped sides to Russia. Since this event, Ukraine has been very harsh on the citizens of Crimea, certainly that is not enticing them to want to be under Ukrainian control again.
Again, so what? If Canada forcibly invaded Maine and claimed that an unobserved referendum of Mainers legitimized its annexation, would that fly? Regardless of whether the people of Crimea have an issue with the way they were treated by the Ukrainian government, the solution was not for Russia to invade and annex it.
The rest of your post is just angry ranting. It has nothing to do with the narrative to which I was responding, not with the broader point that the frustration of the populace within a particular region does not justify an illegal invasion and annexation by a foreign power.
We'll bookmark this claim and come back to it later ...
Remember when District Judge Ellis and District Judge Sullivan were going to dismiss both Manafort indictments because Mueller was operating illegally? There are a number of posters on this thread who were pushing that narrative a few months ago...
Remember when District Judge Ellis and District Judge Sullivan were going to dismiss both Manafort indictments because Mueller was operating illegally? There are a number of posters on this thread who were pushing that narrative a few months ago...
From what I can find on him, Ellis is a seasoned judge who will play devil's advocate in a heartbeat just to make the attorneys think. He seems to be impartial and fair. He also has no tolerance for BS in his courtroom.
We don't convict people in our country for spending their money the way they want to. Do you know for a fact that he did not pay taxes?....Shame on you.
Yes I do know he did not pay his fare share of taxes - that has been widely reported in the press based on information released by the prosecutor's office.
Why are you defending a guy who was paid $80 million by the Russian-backed Ukrainian govt and did not declare that income on his 1040 ??
I agree that there is a possibility that this case does not 'reach the jury'. However, I believe that Mr. Manafort is watching to see how strong the case against him is.
If he feels that the case against him is strong to very strong when the prosecution rests, then such would be the ideal time for Mr. Manafort to reach a deal with the prosecution; in other words, 'flip'.
It has happened before. Defendants will resist all chances to 'flip', until they see that they are in definite danger of losing their freedom.
Of course, Mr. Manafort may well be hoping for a Presidential pardon. I imagine that Mr. Trump would not do so until after the November elections.
From what I have been reading, the evidence is building up against Mr. Manafort. I mean, the introduction of fake invoices, called so by the vendors in question?
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