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Old 02-08-2019, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,496,494 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northman83 View Post
Any Right weenier trying to tell you Universal Healthcare, Medical, Single Payer whatever, is going to be more expensive then what the US currently has is A LIAR.

If 30-40 other countries are able to spend $5000 pr person to cover them for everything for life, and the US now spends $10.000 and dont cover everybody, and just for certain things, how in gods green earth will it cost MORE to do as the other 30+ countries with Universal Healthcare?

The US now spends $3.4 TRILLION on healthcare.. when it should spend $2.4 Trillion or less on healthcare.
Its wasting at least $1 Trillion a year to private industry as of now.. wanna guess how much of that goes to congress and senators reelection campaigns?
how about address the cost issue...…………..hmmmmm


in 1965 they said medicare would only cost 12 billion by 1990, it cost 3 billion to implement it in 1966

in 1990 medicare cost 107 billion



in 2000 medicare was 216 billion
in 2008 medicare was 456 billion
in 2016 medicare was 691 billion

what is even more interesting is what the predicted outlays will be in the future
in 2016 medicare was 691 billion
prediction for 2020....963 billion
prediction for 2026....1.383 Trillion



lets now add in Medicaid
Medicaid:
2000.....117 billion
2008.....201 billion
2016.....368 billion

actual Medicaid 2016.....368 billion
prediction for 2020....450 billion
prediction for 2026....616 Billion


so the prediction is medicare and Medicaid is expected to be over 2 trillion dollars is less than 8 years
that's just the GOVERNMENT costs of Medicare and Medicaid
... and medicare/Medicaid covers less than 1/6 of our population..


our current budget is about 4 trillion, with revenue of about 3 trillion...….




....where do you think the MAGIC MONEY is going to appear from




number of americans in full pledged nursing homes: 2.5 million...... the average cost Adult Day Health Care,.20,000 per year......assisted living facility 45,000 per year....nursing home (semi-private room),.85,000 per year.......nursing home (private room),.96,000
number of americans in all levels of nursing homes and assisted living....12 million (Annually 11,995,100 people receive support from the 5 main long-term care service; home health agencies (5,742,500), nursing homes (2,383,700), hospices (1,544,500), residential care communities (913,300) and adult day service centers (373,200)...............total cost of long term care 590 billion annually...and going up every year https://www.genworth.com/corporate/a...t-of-care.html

will nursing homes be covered under a singlepayer...or would that massive expense be classified as ''not covered'' as it is with medicare?? or is that nearly trillion dollar bill right back on the peoples back??


----------------------------
More than 26 million Americans have significant vision loss.((a total of 85 million Americans have potentially blinding eye diseases. )) (((hmmm more than 26 million americans are blind or going blind.....that's more than Norway, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, and Austria COMBINED TOTAL population....)))......The cost of vision loss, including direct costs and lost productivity, is estimated to exceed $181 billion in 2019


----------------------------

number of americans with heart disease: 29.2 million and of those..((Number of visits with heart disease as primary diagnosis: 17 million ))((Number of discharges with heart disease as first-listed diagnosis: 4.9 million)).....900,000 people in the USA die from heart disease annually....the cost 690 billion annually
will cardiac care be covered under a singlepayer...or would that massive expense be classified as ''not covered'' or "sorry you smoke, or eat too much" not covered?? that is the cost of CARE... again has nothing to do with insurance


---------------------------------

number of Americans with diabetes below the age of 60: 31 million....total cost 395 billion per year, and rising.....
will the ''government single-payer'' say.... nope, you got diabetes, because you are FAT, sorry not covered??


---------------------------------------------------------------------


Obesity rates among ALL OECD nations increased in recent years, with the highest rate in the U.S. at 37.3% -- which means one in 3 Americans is by definition obese.----400 billion per year
year
New Data Shows Obesity Costs Will Grow to $480 Billion by 2020 | Partnership to Fight Chronic Disease



-----------------------------------------------------
number of Americans getting cancer (new cases) per year 1.9 million for a total of 25 million people being treated (fighting) each year...each year at least 570,000 die from cancer....the cost is over 350 billion. and expected to be 390 billion by 2020


---------------------------------------------



number of Americans with asthma: 27 million....Each day 11 Americans die from asthma.......annual costs 76 billion per year and increasing


that's over 130 million people with serious health risks..while some may overlap..its still a good one third of the country...and none of these costs is about insurance or what insurance covers or costs..these are direct costs of care


======================================
SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR IT...........................
=========================



so what YOU are saying is we should FORCE doctors and nurse to work for minimum wage. and have offices in huts


when you pay that doctor $100 ,, its not 100 dollars going into his pocket...there are lots of other COSTS


how are you going to control the cost of medical equipment(mri or x-ray machines, etc)??????most xray machines are made in and imported from Denmark


how are you going to control the rising property tax/rent/mortgage that doctors face????? will the government LOWER property taxes for doctors offices.. the property taxes that fund our schools which say they dont have enough money????

think about that one for a second.... let it sink in....


how are you going to control the cost of supplies(gauze, plaster, silk, rubber, polystyrene( a oil product)?????......especially some supplies that aren't even American, because the globalist liberals have outsourced almost all manufacturing!!!


how are you going to control the cost of the people salaries???? these people with a specialty of medicine...... a maximum wage ??? yeah that's a perfect socialist idea a max wage... bet that will fly



how are you, going to control the employment costs for Doctors, nurses, technicians, hospital food operators, hospital linen cleaning service, custodial services, medical transcribers????.....
...are you going to 'nationalize' every profession that is even remotely connected to medicine????
yeah that's the idea...'nationalize' every profession connected to medicine, then install a max wage....




how are they going to control malpractice INSURANCE COSTS????? …. well Shakespeare did say "kill all the lawyers"



how are you going to control the cost of the rising electric bills the doctors/hospitals are facing????
for example the average hospital uses a lot of electricity...about 450,000 a month...that's over 5 million dollars in electric costs yearly, and in most case to a town government as many utility companies are municipals to the town/city...………..
.........….you are not likely to cut that piece of overhead...………..




so the GOVERNMENT prediction is Medicare and Medicaid is expected to be over 2 trillion dollars is less than 8 years..and that is for less than 1/6th of the country (if we were to use medicare costs to average out to the entire country, we are talking 12 trillion by 2026.....so...

..my estimate of a singlepayer (covering 330 million people) is on target with about 6 trillion annually, maybe even estimated a little low
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:40 AM
 
19,654 posts, read 12,239,759 times
Reputation: 26458
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnamed View Post
Numbers have been posted several times in this thread. The overall spend on the current system is more, for less coverage.

How to distribute the costs as a tax rather than as employer/employee/individual premiums is a matter of debate and would likely just be progressive with brackets like our existing taxes.

Trick would also be to ensure that the current employer paid premiums flow back into our paychecks rather than just be pocketed as profit.
It clearly isn't all about the money, it's about who is "deserving" in the minds of some who view themselves as donor.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:40 AM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,231,797 times
Reputation: 17209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
Health care is a service, not a right. What we need to do is fully deregulate it. Insurance companies should be deregulated. All public involvement should cease. The FDA should be abolished. Capitalism and the free market should be allowed to allocate health care. That’s what we had in earlier times, when doctors would come by your house to give you reasonably priced care.

The current high prices are attributable to state involvement and corruption. Eliminate the state, privatize everything. Make everything for-profit. Watch the costs come down.
Eliminating the government does not eliminate corruption. Perhaps you are advocating for medicine to be delivered in a bottle labelled "Dr Feel Good"?
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:44 AM
 
17,311 posts, read 12,263,996 times
Reputation: 17263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
Health care is a service, not a right. What we need to do is fully deregulate it. Insurance companies should be deregulated. All public involvement should cease. The FDA should be abolished. Capitalism and the free market should be allowed to allocate health care. That’s what we had in earlier times, when doctors would come by your house to give you reasonably priced care.

The current high prices are attributable to state involvement and corruption. Eliminate the state, privatize everything. Make everything for-profit. Watch the costs come down.

We already have significant state involvement and we see the result. We can see what total state involvement looks like. We need only look at Canada, Eurotrashland, etc. What do we see? Rationing, cost containment, death panels, denial of care, waiting lists that kill you, etc. Let’s get rid of the state involvement. Abolish all the fiefdoms in the 50 state insurance commissions. Allow insurance companies to operate across all state lines without any state interference. Allow doctors to charge what they want. Remove all the regulation, paperwork, overhead, bureaucracy, and interference. Walmart can open a doctor’s office in every store without ANY involvement by the state. Just like the eye care centers that you see everywhere.

Get rid of the state. Don’t increase its reach. We don’t need the people who gave us the monopoly post office and the DMV to be controlling our very life and death.

Deregulate, privatize, free market, for-profit, capitalism for medicine.

$$$
Profits are already skyrocketing, along with the costs, for subpar health care service.

What do we see with Canada, Eurotrashland, etc? Better results. Longer lives. Less disease disability. Less hospital admissions for preventable diseases. Better treatment of heart attacks. Fewer medical errors. Etc.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:46 AM
 
1,705 posts, read 538,926 times
Reputation: 1142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post

We already have significant state involvement and we see the result. We can see what total state involvement looks like. We need only look at Canada, Eurotrashland, etc. What do we see? Rationing, cost containment, death panels, denial of care, waiting lists that kill you, etc.


Hahaha... Serious?

Try reading some facts sometimes!
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,496,494 times
Reputation: 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane View Post
It clearly isn't all about the money, it's about who is "deserving" in the minds of some who view themselves as donor.
everyone deserves... just open up the yellow pages and find a doctors

its your health...its your body...its the SERVICE YOU receive..and its your bill..... NO-ONE should have to pay YOUR bill for you... have some pride man
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:48 AM
 
17,311 posts, read 12,263,996 times
Reputation: 17263
Quote:
Originally Posted by aus10 View Post
So I have to work longer and harder to bring the same amount of net home in my paycheck to pay my other expenses and quite possibly send me into a higher tax bracket so that someone else has the exact same thing I'm paying for? Got it. Someone wants me to pay for their discount or the purchase price in whole.... Sure, why the hell not....... And ya'll wonder why there are those of us who feel as we do. Whether there are people on here who will admit it or not...... that remains to be seen....


If this proposal costs less. Then we could essentially just take your employer/employee premium, give it to this new system instead and there you go with no increase.

And again, you are already paying for others. Your costs today help cover those folks that show up at an ER and can't pay.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,496,494 times
Reputation: 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnamed View Post
Profits are already skyrocketing, along with the costs, for subpar health care service.

What do we see with Canada, Eurotrashland, etc? Better results. Longer lives. Less disease disability. Less hospital admissions for preventable diseases. Better treatment of heart attacks. Fewer medical errors. Etc.
worse outcomes in Europe and Canada... the USA still has the best outcomes for treatment
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:50 AM
 
19,654 posts, read 12,239,759 times
Reputation: 26458
Quote:
Originally Posted by aus10 View Post
So I have to work longer and harder to bring the same amount of net home in my paycheck to pay my other expenses and quite possibly send me into a higher tax bracket so that someone else has the exact same thing I'm paying for? Got it. Someone wants me to pay for their discount or the purchase price in whole.... Sure, why the hell not....... And ya'll wonder why there are those of us who feel as we do. Whether there are people on here who will admit it or not...... that remains to be seen....
Do you not understand you are already paying for others? Your private insurance makes you pay for unhealthy lifestyle people as well. You are paying for Medicaid, and the uninsured who end up at ERs.

This is how a society works. Even if you had no insurance and paid everything out of pocket the prices you pay include subsidizing others. Otherwise just do your own surgery and grow herbs. Live off the grid. You live in a society not a vacuum.

And yes, some people get the same or better coverage and pay less, or pay nothing. It isn't common, but it happens. Because we have a disjointed patchwork health system and there are shifting and churning winners and losers. It's a mess.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,496,494 times
Reputation: 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northman83 View Post
Hahaha... Serious?

Try reading some facts sometimes!
how about you take your own advice

actually our results are better than most other countries




France, Canada, Germany, and England have WORSE OUTCOMES of treatment and diagnosis

Frances health care system is BROKE, as in out of money


German system is losing money like a colander..so much that the chancellor her self said they have to cut care or else



we know, American health care costs more.....


American health care has better results too







we have 330 million population

we spend massively, because we atleast address the problems

we have millions that have diabetes...other country dont diagnose as much as we do

we have millions that have monocular degeneration (blindness) other countries dont fully treat as well as we do

its the same with most thing...look at the numbers we (the usa) has a better 'treatment' record (life after diagnoses) than all other countries.

1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers. Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians. Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries. Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians. Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).

5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."

6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer. All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada. In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.

7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."

8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade. The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.

Conclusion. , the U.S. health care system compares MORE favorably to those in other developed countries

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/sec...pe-and-canada/



================================================

If healthcare costs less in Germany, then why does Germany have to ration?
Healthcare costs less, but Germany can't give you the medication you need, because they can't afford to buy it.


yes we spend a lot on healthcare...but we also have the BEST RECORDS of health.........



our outcomes (diagnosis and TREATMENT, and RECOVERY) is some of the BEST in the world
a) we rank in the top 10 of RECOVERY from cancer

b)American women have a 63 percent chance of living at least five years after a cancer diagnosis, compared to 56 percent for European women.
c)American men have a five-year survival rate of 66 percent — compared to only 47 percent for European men.
d)Among European countries, only Sweden has an overall survival rate for men of more than 60 percent.
e)For women, only three European countries (Sweden, Belgium and Switzerland) have an overall survival rate of more than 60 percent.

that is the ranking of care available to all Americans, not just those with private health coverage. Great Britain, known for its 50-year-old government-run, universal health care system, fares worse than the European average: British men have a five-year survival rate of only 45 percent; women, only 53 percent.


--------------------------------------------------------------------


how about a comparison to Canada???

a)For women, the average survival rate for all cancers is 61 percent in the United States, compared to 58 percent in Canada.

b)For men, the average survival rate for all cancers is 57 percent in the United States, compared to 53 percent in Canada.


In the United States, 85 percent of women aged 25 to 64 years have regular PAP smears, compared with 58 percent in Great Britain. The same is true for mammograms; in the United States, 84 percent of women aged 50 to 64 years get them regularly — a higher percentage than in Australia, Canada or New Zealand, and far higher than the 63 percent of British women.







which country has the highest cancer rate (cases not recovery)...Denmark..they are the SICKEST (in terms of cancer) in the world
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