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My 20 year old cousin was vaccinated and died last week of Covid. She only had it a few days and then all of a sudden stopped breathing. She was a type 1 diabetic though. The family doesn’t think diabetes had anything to do with it. They got mad at me for saying it did. They said diabetes doesn’t stop you from breathing. No but you are more susceptible to complications when you have an underlying condition.
Diabetics make up 40% of covid deaths. It is one of the highest risks you can have for dying from Covid.
Wow - you actually found the time to find the link to something, but you never seem to find the time to actually read and comprehend what we are saying.
And before someone new joins in and says - "wow, that guy is a jerk." This same conversation has been going on for months.
I am not doing your motive thing, but it's like you are not really reading what most of us are saying. You pick out 1 sentence and run with it.... In the totally wrong direction.
I'm sorry you've been brainwashed. I really am. I feel sorry for you. Or...... You're doing what you do on purpose. I've told you this a dozen times now..
Yes, After all this back and forth, we've gone nowhere, because you still believe that you have the "inalienable right" to spread a dangerous pathogen without mitigation or restraint. And that viewpoint is squarely in opposition to established precedent and majority opinion.
I don't think it's too far fetched either. When you look at the pattern of emerging variants, it seems almost targeted, to populations where covid just wasn't taking off.
Brazilian immunologists traced P1 (Gamma, containing mutations associated with escape potential) to first appearing in November 2020 in Manaus, Brazil or the the Amazonian forest outside Manaus. Up to 76% of the population of Manaus was believed to have been infected with covid by October 2020. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/a...covid-variant/
The area is relatively isolated, making possible an interference the connection is causal. Widespread natural infection almost certainly resulted in Gamma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi
It's so weird to me that you would say this. The only explanation is that you haven't bothered to look at any of the very good sources that have been posted here because it doesn't fit your narrative. There is no excuse for anybody truly following the pandemic, pro or antivax; to not understand the very well known term; leaky vaccines.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-v...olve-20180510/ ...
And yes, I know: Who really cares about the unvaccinated, right? (even though this now means children) I mean, "the unvaccinated should just get vaccinated". Because YOU are protected, right? The vaccinated are theoretically; "protected from the costs".
The term "leaky" vaccine is used in different contexts. Absolutely, the covid vaccines are not sterilizing vaccines, with the latest Israeli estimate that the vaxxed suppress spread of Delta by about 50% (reported by the Israeli Minister of Health on Face the Nation), down from 75% (PHE data for B.117 reported by Dr. John Campbell) with higher yet estimates for original covid. Agree that the vaccinated should mask, as the CDC now recommends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi
But the vaccines wane starting about 6 months later. If you were vaccinated (with mrna) in January, your waning protection started happening in June. If vaccinated in April, that will start in October. This is why the boosters are going to be available; to combat waning.
As the vaccines waned, we reached the phase where we are now: The vaccinated are carrying & transmitting covid but not dying from covid. This is known as the "Leaky Vaccine" impact. ... Except that the mrna vaccines don't just reach "Leaky" & hold there ... They keep waning.
ALL neutralizing antibodies for every disease wane over time otherwise the body would end up with 'antibody mush.' The body being smart creates durable immunities that include the memory B/helper T cell functions among others. When challenged by a pathogen the cells generate more antibodies, and activate other immune-reactions.
A few days pass, however, before an adequate defense can be mounted now leaving the vaccine-recipient open to an active infection although to date of lesser severity and duration. Lab studies have found that vaccination creates that adaptive immunity, although the extent specifically among the elderly is not clear and may differ among vaccines or dosage schedules. Plus these immunities are difficult to assess, with study sizes small. SO FAR the epidemiological evidence is supportive.
A high level of neutralizing antibodies is BETTER. Prowling the body on the ready, they work to prevent the spike crown from attaching to a cell for the entire virus to infect it, suppressing spread and symptoms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi
I don't understand why people don't want to understand what the problem is for people with "covid naive" immune systems. "Covid naive", meaning have not had covid at all. No covid. Not the original strain, not the strain prior to Delta & not any of the strains in between. The vaccines will wane, leaving them like a human who has spent since December 2019 in outer space, then lands on earth to be exposed to a disease 100% more infectious than the first wave was.
Better to have built immunity to the original strain & constantly reinforced by exposures to evolving variants along the way, because as long as we keep vaccinating, the pathogen will continue to evolve until it escapes the boosters protection forever. ... I think a new one has arose already that is not being reported publicly & Delta is getting the blame because it's very important to the agenda that "variants emerge in unvaccinated populations".
Once again the vaccinated are not elevated to December 2019 outer space territory. Why would not a mass infection scenario for a disease this infectious not result in mutations to the WHOLE virus resulting in not only an escape variant (to date, primarily greater fit & infectivity) but possible more virulence (no variant virulence proved to date)? Like what happened with the escape mutations in Manaus, Brazil?
Mutations occur against antibodies - however they are created, from natural infection, vaccination, or antibody treatments.
Possible advantages of vaccinated immunity include (1) a breakthrough infection will allow for that broader recovered immunity but at a lower risk of severe disease and (2) natural infections may well be longer-lasting allowing for more mutation-possibility and (3) absent vaccination, there's no additional immune support for the unvaccinated immunocompromised person that - per one theory - was the index case for B.117 and possibly other variants-of-concern.
The larger point is there are plenty of reputable scientists not willing to stake their reputations on assertions that their theory is how this disease WILL play out, with studies gathering data now underway. Viral biological evolution is complex, and there appear to be multiple impacting factors.
Still I think it really valuable when posters are willing to discuss this for mutation-possibility is probably the single most important factor that will shape what happens in the next few years.
Yes, thats an astute observation The principle of force is a line once crossed, will naturally and inevitably extend to everyone. Power is never self restricted.
Those above line 98 understand this fact of human nature
So you believe it's a slippery slope.
However, vaccine requirements are not a new thing. International travel, public schools, and the medical field are just a few examples.
If this really were the start of some sort of "creeping authoritarianism", would you not expect it to have already happened?
Yes, After all this back and forth, we've gone nowhere, because you still believe that you have the "inalienable right" to spread a dangerous pathogen without mitigation or restraint. And that viewpoint is squarely in opposition to established precedent and majority opinion.
You possess a dangerous, authoritarian mindset, and therefore, when combined with ignorance, a threat to the very liberties untold numbers have sacrificed their lives to protect.
The fact is, vaccines do not prevent the infection or spread of the disease, as is well demonstrated in places like Israel. Furthermore, its the people who are vaccinated that shed spike proteins, which can cause illness in others.
You have no argument. Your position is based on false perceptions and uninformed beliefs.
You possess a dangerous, authoritarian mindset, and therefore, when combined with ignorance, a threat to the very liberties untold numbers have sacrificed their lives to protect.
The fact is, vaccines do not prevent the infection or spread of the disease, as is well demonstrated in places like Israel. Furthermore, its the people who are vaccinated that shed spike proteins, which can cause illness in others.
You have no argument. Your position is based on false perceptions and uninformed beliefs.
It is not true that the vaccines do not help prevent spread.
However, vaccine requirements are not a new thing. International travel, public schools, and the medical field are just a few examples.
If this really were the start of some sort of "creeping authoritarianism", would you not expect it to have already happened?
God help us all ….. I don’t know how old you are, but I can tell you this …. if I went back in time just 30 years, and told people of the things happening today (that people like you seem to think is normal), I would be laughed at and called a lunatic. Thats how bad things are that you seem to lack an awareness of, or perhaps you simply lack a frame of referrence.
Yes, we have traveled that slippery slope a very long way already to reach where we are, one small step, and then another, while voices like yours have helped pave that road to hell, with good intentions.
And reasonable regulations to mitigate disease in a crisis are not "authoritarianism".
Good cite, 50 to 60% reduced chance of infection including asymptomatic, and thus spread . That's about what the Israeli's came up - 50% - that the Israeli Minister quoted on Face the Nation a couple of Sundays ago.
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The principle of force is a line once crossed, will naturally and inevitably extend to everyone. Power is never self restricted.