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Anti-mask/shutdown protesters entered government buildings disrupting their services while armed and physically pushed and shoved police...who did nothing in response. Lesson being, if you want to protest and lay hands on police, bring your rifle?
Unfortunately you are preaching to the choir. Even if you are 100% accurate, the right will dismiss it all. People are still denying the holocaust, so that's where we are at. For years during and for decades after WWII it was dismissed as propaganda by the right and/or justified. Our government even hired ex nazi's for our space program and for intelligence work against the soviets. We have always had a right wing power structure, from 1776 on, even with left leaning presidents like FDR. You are confusing what is legal from what is (and always was) practised by the power structure. It started with the fairy tale, all men are created equal, written by English aristocrats wanting to break from England and seize control of power in the US. And it's been brought up to date with the fairy tale, MAGA.
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Originally Posted by greywar
OK. Over and over I see people here comment on Portland. And its quite clear they are eating up propaganda that doesn't represent the reality on the ground. I live in a nearby city, and spend most weekends at a place in Portland. Trump and Barr are trying to validate the use of force against people who express their views as allowed by the first amendment.
1. The VAST majority of people present are non violent protesters. They are exercising their first amendment rights. The actions of those who are violent have been used to justify a obscene amount of brutality. Right wing folks like to zoom in on the violent people, while ignoring the vast majority of folks peacefully protesting. Locals keep pointing out just how tiny of a area this is occurring at. The VAST majority of whats occurring happens in a truly tiny area of the city. No Portland is not burning down. No buildings have been destroyed. But for over a month our own police used a LRAD on people. They deployed a LOT of tear gas. Courts finally had to order them to stop targeting legal observers, and news reporters. The city ordered them to stop using tear gas, and to not use the LRAD in a offensive mode. Believe it or not when they stopped doing these things, the protests went down.
2. So when the DHS deployed these folks, there is a couple things I want folks to keep in mind. This operation was planned before the pandemic occurred AS PER Bill Barr today. How do they justify it? Well they claimed over a dozen acts of graffiti, and about $5,000 dollars in damages to federal property. What was the excuse going to be back before Covid I wonder? The deployment of these agents over the period of time claimed will cost 6 million dollars. At the time the feds were deployed, the crowd sizes were under 200 people. Literally thousands of people are now out there. Theres over a dozen different lawsuits now going on about all of this. And the federal agents have injured a ton of people. The vast majority of which, and let me stress this, are trying to exercise their first amendment rights.
3. Portland does not want them here. No one has asked them to be here. And they've caused this to go from a couple hundred people peacefully protesting...to thousands protesting, and a increasingly escalating situation. The amount of damages done by these troops to people, and to our democracy is simply insane. As a "creating law and order" attempt it has done the opposite.
4. Theres been a ton of folks talking about the tens of millions in damages done here by protestors. Thats from a report where 26 million in damages is discussed...its a report however that thats about damages that include economic damages from Covid. Its not even remotely connected to reality. There IS damage, dont get me wrong. But its almost all within the tiny area, and is far far far less then people are claiming.
5. So like the local police the federal agents immediately started targeting medical assistance personnel who unlike the federal agents are VERY clearly marked (many of whom work at the hospitals these folks would be sent to if injured during their normal day jobs), observers who are also very clearly marked, and clearly marked reporters. They're taking a ton of pain.
6. the federal agents have hit multiple people in the face with less then lethal weapons. This is absolutely not what you are supposed to do. And people have been incredibly badly hurt. So far it appears that the folks hit in the face were all peaceful protestors exercising their right to protest.
7. People have been grabbed by military dressed personnel, and shoved into a vehicle that was unmarked. Now its apparent that if people grab you like this, shoving you into a unmarked vehicle dressed as military, and place you in a locked room you cannot leave, that you are under arrest. Thats a requirement in order to lock someone in like this. When the person asked for her attorney the feds let her go. no charges. This is illegal. You cannot arrest someone without probable cause. Their excuse was she was standing near someone they observed using a laser. They can go arrest that person, you cannot arrest those near them unless they have done something. Thats not alleged by the DHS. They claim they are pre-emptively arresting people. Also illegal.
8. Oregon has sued to stop the feds. Some with success-they were recently told that just like the Portland police they could no longer target news people, or observers. They have repeatedly done so, and now are going to have to go back to court once again. Ignoring the law. Again, just like in so many of these other points. They are operating in a unlawful manner. But the only major loss so far was Oregon being told by a judge that they did not have standing.....to sue to protect their citizens. Yeah. Think about that. So yesterday multiple victims of this behavior sued the feds with the help of the ACLU.
9. So whats it like now? Well with the police escalating things people began trying to protect themselves. But when the feds arrived they turned that tiny area of Portland into utter mess.
10. The actions by the federal government are both brutalizing, and unlawful. Ignoring people first amendment rights damages our country very fabric. Yes, its being done to those you may or may not like. But remember this, defending peoples rights means that you also need to defend it for those you disagree with, or you will eventually try to exercise those rights, and find that they are no longer there. If allowed to stand, we will eventually fail as a Democracy. If a president did something like just taking peoples guns and dealing with the justification later (which is something Trump has stated in the past) you too might want to protest. And the local anarchists could get you tear gassed and shot with non lethal...by simply showing up and being a little violent. you know...like apparently graffiti.
11. Last night "someone" pointed out a bag to Portland police. they posted the contents on their twitter feed. 2 canning jars with no liquid in them, but rags sticking out the top. Problem? Canning jars are about the worst way to do this, you very likely wont break them. and for them to be at all operative they probably should have added a liquid to them. More importantly though? There were clips from a rifle in the bag, they had red paint on them to make them look more grungy. Problem? The paint was still wet. It dripped on the plastic they set it on. Second problem? No one at the protest has been seen with a rifle that would take that clip other then the feds, and Portland police. AND...oddly enough protestors DID use paint.....on a Fed. Oddly it appears to be the exact same color of paint that can be seen in photos on a federal agent.
The bottom line? You're being fed a line of nonsense. Portland hasn't burned any buildings down-the closest we get I think is a flare used that caused minor damage to the police association. And no, the fireworks used are not going to light the concrete building on fire. 90% of those showing up to protest these days are there because of the actions of the federal government. The area where this occurred is only a few blocks in size. The vast majority of the damage currently being done is caused by the federal government, and is mostly medical bills of those they shoot less lethals at, broken bones, and other injuries. There are some common sense questions you should ask yourself. Is it right to remove others right to protest due to a few peoples actions? Would you call this a success knowing that the cost of the federal deployment is in the millions...over 5K in damages. And that its turned a 200 people or less protest area into a thousands of people protesting. And if these thousands of people were rioting, how long would those 114 people the feds deployed actually survive without using weapons?
This is not the type of thing our government should be doing. In actual Democracies they should not be done. And the propaganda out there about a city Ive lived in for years before moving to a adjacent city amazes me. I know many of you believe that Portland has burned buildings down. That the protests are full of rioters. That the police are hurting people doing bad things. They arent. They're hurting people trying to protest, they're hurting complete innocents. The damage done by them is beyond what the civilian criminals have done. BTW The folks rioting or being violent? They deserve to be in jail. But so do the other side of this. The federal agents are acting in a unlawful manner. And if you cheer it on it may become the new normal. Meaning that our right to protest will simply be gone.
So merely by standing nearby someone you are guilty of aiding them in whatever they do? If they physically prevent an arrest, absolutely. But just being there? That is ridiculous imo.
There's an old saying --- "If you lie down with dogs, you will get fleas."
If these so-called "peaceful protesters" had half a brain, they would leave immediately when things turn ugly. Period.
But these clips are all over the internet and the media only references Portland - not a small 6 city block area. Around the world - the city of Portland is getting a bad rep as the news is misrepresenting is happening in the city according to you. Why not go after the media to report fairly? The police are gaining lots of sympathy because these riots have gone on so long.
And I agree with the other poster - if you know the sh*t goes down after dark and you don't want to get caught up in it then take your arse home. If you get hit with a rubber bullet - you only have yourself to blame. I hate guns and I hate violence but I'd love to take this 63 yr old woman's arse down there and kick some sense into these protestors. I've had it and I think most of the country feels the same way - I know my dem friends do.
Per the bolded --- I agree 100%. I'm a few years older than you but I, too, would love to kick some sense into these protesters.
I also agree that if so-called "peaceful protesters" don't want to be caught up in the mayhem, they should leave when things turn ugly.
Yet...I also have to wonder how many of them have brought the gift of COVID home to their families. If they do that and a family member with a compromised immune system gets it and dies, the half-wit who brought it home will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.
If you would surrender the 1st amendment over the actions of a few, why not the 2nd?
Ridiculous.
Would you stay if a protest turned ugly? If so, then you have to live with the consequences which may involve you getting killed. Are you willing to die for the cause---whatever that cause may be? If so, then don't whine and complain when the actions of a few turn ugly while you stand around and allow yourself to be caught up in the violence.
Most people who are reasonably intelligent who want a peaceful protest, would leave when things turn ugly. For example, many of the so-called "peaceful protesters" are bringing kids in strollers to these events. If they are decent parents and they see things turning ugly, they would hightail it out of there for the sake of their kids. If you were a parent, you would understand.
Would you stay if a protest turned ugly? If so, then you have to live with the consequences which may involve you getting killed. Are you willing to die for the cause---whatever that cause may be? If so, then don't whine and complain when the actions of a few turn ugly while you stand around and allow yourself to be caught up in the violence.
Most people who are reasonably intelligent who want a peaceful protest, would leave when things turn ugly. For example, many of the so-called "peaceful protesters" are bringing kids in strollers to these events. If they are decent parents and they see things turning ugly, they would hightail it out of there for the sake of their kids. If you were a parent, you would understand.
So then you don't believe in stand your ground/castle doctrine laws either I presume and favor duty to retreat laws?
You have a right to peacefully protest. You don't need to surrender that because of some other jackass. It's also not your duty to police that jackass yourself.
Last edited by notnamed; 07-30-2020 at 02:50 PM..
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