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Exibit A folks of your typical Trump voter, the mindset of what a sizable portion of people in the US think and why an uncompassionate, narcissistic, pathological liar, multiple bankruptcy, maritally unfaithful, reality TV star is in office. "I do not care about anyone else", "too bad the majority benefit from these programs", "I got mine" so, "get off my lawn!"
I don't support Trump AT ALL. He's not a fiscal conservative. He's not of decent moral character. I make no bones about my disdain for him. I'm fully supporting Biden because there is no other sane alternative. I'll take a moderate Democrat over Trump any day. Hell I'd vote for a tuna fish sandwich over Trump.
What makes you think I would support him? Because I don't subscribe to a social safety net? Who are you to tell anyone that they should pay for someone else's retirement?
In case you haven't noticed this country is in deep debt, and they're digging the hole deeper. We haven't had this level of debt per GDP since World War 2. It's time we had serious conversations on both taxation and budget overhauls. That's a fact.
When Obama with congress temporarily cut the payroll tax was it an attack on social security and Medicare?
Temporarily is one thing. Trump is talking about doing it permanently if he's re-elected. Of course, I think he's talking out of his azz like he always does.
I don't support Trump AT ALL. He's not a fiscal conservative. He's not of decent moral character. I make no bones about my disdain for him. I'm fully supporting Biden because there is no other sane alternative. I'll take a moderate Democrat over Trump any day. Hell I'd vote for a tuna fish sandwich over Trump.
What makes you think I would support him? Because I don't subscribe to a social safety net? Who are you to tell anyone that they should pay for someone else's retirement?
In case you haven't noticed this country is in deep debt, and they're digging the hole deeper. We haven't had this level of debt per GDP since World War 2. It's time we had serious conversations on both taxation and budget overhauls. That's a fact.
I personally wish there was a 3rd party option at every vote. Only two choices sometimes leaves us in a bad scenario. The choices were terrible at last election (Hillary who I can not stand and Trump, who I can not stand). Now we have another two terrible candidates. I do not think Biden is as bad as Hillary but he still is not a good candidate in my mind. I'd like to see an permanent "independent" 3rd party at each voting cycle so less chance of "voting for less of two evils".
What I do not understand is your (and some others) disdain for social entitlement programs. The stock market is a financial crapshoot / gamble (my father lost millions in Enron and GE comes to mind) and most do not make enough to invest in the stock market. The stock market is just a way for those with wealth / those with enough disposable income to gamble / invest in to gain more wealth. Millions are living in poverty and do not have enough disposable income to do so. This is shown in study after study. No, its not that they are all out making poor financial choices buying the latest gadgets and blowing their money. They simply do not have enough disposable income after paying for basic life ensuring needs to do so. So the "just invest your money" argument does not hold water for many millions of people. Its only an option for the smaller percentage of people who have the disposable income to do so.
Social security and veterans payments and benefits have benefited billions over the lives of the programs. That is billions with a B. Study after study show that other free, democratic industrialized countries who pay more in taxes to fund more extensive social entitlement programs are happier, healthier and better off. They are happier paying more taxes into these programs and they are happier and healthier because of them.
Why would you, or some others be ok with reducing or outright eliminating social net programs (and funding sources for them) when these programs help our vulnerable, sick, elderly and veterans who come back from war with physical and / or mental injuries?
I personally wish there was a 3rd party option at every vote. Only two choices sometimes leaves us in a bad scenario. The choices were terrible at last election (Hillary who I can not stand and Trump, who I can not stand). Now we have another two terrible candidates. I do not think Biden is as bad as Hillary but he still is not a good candidate in my mind. I'd like to see an permanent "independent" 3rd party at each voting cycle so less chance of "voting for less of two evils".
What I do not understand is your (and some others) disdain for social entitlement programs. The stock market is a financial crapshoot / gamble (my father lost millions in Enron) and most do not make enough to invest in the stock market. The stock market is just a way for those with wealth / those with enough disposable income to gamble / invest in to gain more wealth. Millions are living in poverty and do not have enough disposable income to do so. This is shown in study after study.
Social security and veterans payments and benefits have benefited billions over the lives of the programs. That is billions with a B. Study after study show that other free, democratic industrialized countries who pay more in taxes to fund more extensive social entitlement programs are happier, healthier and better off. They are happier paying more taxes into these programs and they are happier and healthier because of them.
Why would you, or some others be ok with reducing or outright eliminating social net programs (and funding sources for them) when these programs help our vulnerable, sick, elderly and veterans who come back from war with physical and / or mental injuries?
#1. Investing- This is a personal choice. Sorry your Dad lost millions, however that is a risk he took. My investments are in sound funds with proven managers and have performed especially well. My wife and I lived just above the poverty line for several years and still managed to max out our 401k's and put money into our private funds.
#2. Social Safety Nets- They are RIFE with fraud, waste and abuse. Maybe my disdain is borne from the fact my father abused the ever living snail snot out of VA after my parents divorced. He served in Japan during the Korean War in refrigeration. He smoked 3-4 packs of Viceroys a day and drank heavily. He couldn't hold a job in HVAC because of his alcoholism. He (and proudly I might add) paid off a crooked doctor in NC to claim his emphysema was really a lung ailment caused by phosgene gas exposure. He quit working, collected his SSDI, expanded vet bennies and got all his medicals done at the VA. He lived out his life in a little trailer on 5 acres compliments of you and me.
To further illustrate fraud (and close to home AGAIN). My sister died of a brain aneurysm in her mid-40's. She was a school teacher but not yet tenured, and she didn't have life insurance My brother in law, prior to her death had quit his steady job at the VA as a radiation tech and went to work for private healthcare- a job in which he was fired from because he was frankly LAZY. When Kat died he collected S.S. bennies on all his kids, his brother in law moved in (who was also capable of work but managed to get SSDI) so they had that income. My brother in law never got another job. He lived in a nice house mortgaged to the hilt- he paid all his bills on taxpayers dimes. When the kids aged off SS, his home was foreclosed and he went and applied for SSDI because his eyesight was 'too disabling to work'. He filed for bankruptcy. (He wore thick glasses ) Yup- paid a doctor off in Maryland to get that one thru. He lives in a trailer on food stamps, SSDI and Catholic charities. Whatever extra money he had he gambled it away. Prior to the trailer he asked if he could move in with me in Montana. I told him hell no. He's not leaching off of me.
Really? You think the government is capable of providing REAL NEEDS BASED assistance? The money in that fund pays a lot of people to do NOTHING. I've witnessed it in my own damned family. I witnessed it as a banker back in WV. Hell 1/4 of that state is on SSDI or WIC or VA assistance. You have any idea how much fraud we pay for? The VA system should be there for vets who served and need medical services in the event of duty injuries. There are piles of cases where the system is abused.
No- I don't agree with the level of government assistance in this country, and I don't agree that government should wet nurse otherwise capable people. The thing that really made this country what it is is self determination, not socialism. I self determined to provide for me and my wife needs in retirement.
#1. Investing- This is a personal choice. Sorry your Dad lost millions, however that is a risk he took. My investments are in sound funds with proven managers and have performed especially well. My wife and I lived just above the poverty line for several years and still managed to max out our 401k's and put money into our private funds.
That is a risk he took and that falls on him, he can not blame anyone else but himself. However, this is an example that the stock market is a gamble. Do not be so sure your investments are so sound just because they have performed especially well. You are gambling with your money. Investing is a gamble that millions of American's do not have the disposable income to partake in. They just simply do not. That is a fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun
#2. Social Safety Nets- They are RIFE with fraud, waste and abuse. Maybe my disdain is borne from the fact my father abused the ever living snail snot out of VA after my parents divorced. He served in Japan during the Korean War in refrigeration. He smoked 3-4 packs of Viceroys a day and drank heavily. He couldn't hold a job in HVAC because of his alcoholism. He (and proudly I might add) paid off a crooked doctor in NC to claim his emphysema was really a lung ailment caused by phosgene gas exposure. He quit working, collected his SSDI, expanded vet bennies and got all his medicals done at the VA. He lived out his life in a little trailer on 5 acres compliments of you and me.
Every program, organization and group is subject to fraud, waste and abuse. From teachers, priests, churches, police, non profits, armed services .... the list goes on and on. Should we just eliminate these essential and beneficial things just because Fraud waste and abuse occurs in every...single... thing... or would a better way is work on things that eliminate the Fraud waste and abuse? There are many veterans who do not abuse the system that incurred injuries during wartime that would be detimentally affected if funding for the programs that provide for them is reduced and / or eliminated. You would be ok with this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun
To further illustrate fraud (and close to home AGAIN). My sister died of a brain aneurysm in her mid-40's. She was a school teacher but not yet tenured, and she didn't have life insurance My brother in law, prior to her death had quit his steady job at the VA as a radiation tech and went to work for private healthcare- a job in which he was fired from because he was frankly LAZY. When Kat died he collected S.S. bennies on all his kids, his brother in law moved in (who was also capable of work but managed to get SSDI) so they had that income. My brother in law never got another job. He lived in a nice house mortgaged to the hilt- he paid all his bills on taxpayers dimes. When the kids aged off SS, he went and applied for SSDI because his eyesight was 'too disabling to work'. (He wore thick glasses ) Yup- paid a doctor off in Maryland to get that one thru. He lives in a trailer on food stamps, SSDI and Catholic charities. Prior to the trailer he asked if he could move in with me in Montana. I told him hell no. He's not leaching off of me.
Please see my previous paragraph.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun
Really? You think the government is capable of providing REAL NEEDS BASED assistance? The money in that fund pays a lot of people to do NOTHING. I've witnessed it in my own damned family. I witnessed it as a banker back in WV. Hell 1/4 of that state is on SSDI or WIC or VA assistance.
I absolutely believe the government can provide reasonable REAL NEEDS based assistance. Please see my previous paragraphs for fraud, waste and abuse. We are getting to the crux here though (I feel like I am now playing therapist - your life experiences of people abusing the system makes you think all people (or at least most people) abuse the system. I am sorry you experienced this and feel that way. Study after study shows that fraud waste and abuse is under 2%. So, should we throw the baby out with the bathwater with these essential and beneficial programs for Billions of people for an under 2% abuse rate or just continually work at reducing the abuse rate through measures and proactive approaches? For me and millions of other people, the answer is crystal clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun
No- I don't agree with the level of government assistance in this country, and I don't agree that government should wet nurse otherwise capable people. The thing that really made this country what it is is self determination, not socialism.
We have a moral and ethical responsibility to provide for our weak, sick, elderly, infirm and out wounded/injured vets. People not abusing the system that are partaking of this benificial system because they are weak, sick, elderly, infirm and wounded veterans make up 98% percent of those utilizing it. A far cry from "wet nursing" capable people. Poll after poll shows that other industrialized countries providing a more extensive level of each social program then the US do better financially, mental health wise, physical health wise and are happier. These are simply facts.
That is a risk he took but is it an example that the stock market is a gamble. Do not be so sure your investments are so sound just because they have performed especially well. You are gambling with your money. Investing is a gamble that millions of American's do not have the disposable income to partake in. They just simply do not. That is a fact.
Every program, organization and group is subject to fraud, waste and abuse. From teachers, priests, churches, police, non profits, armed services .... the list goes on and on. Should we just eliminate these essential and beneficial things just because Fraud waste and abuse occurs in every...single... thing... or would a better way is work on things that eliminate the Fraud waste and abuse? There are many veterans who do not abuse the system that incurred injuries during wartime that would be detimentally affected if funding for the programs that provide for them is reduced and / or eliminated. You would be ok with this?
Please see my previous paragraph.
I absolutely believe the government can provide reasonable REAL NEEDS based assistance. Please see my previous paragraphs for fraud, waste and abuse. We are getting to the crux here though (I feel like I am now playing therapist - your life experiences of people abusing the system makes you think all people (or at least most people) abuse the system. I am sorry you experienced this and feel that way. Study after study shows that fraud waste and abuse is under 2%. So, should we throw the baby out with the bathwater with these essential and beneficial programs for Billions of people for an under 2% abuse rate or just continually work at reducing the abuse rate through measures and proactive approaches? For me and millions of other people, the answer is crystal clear.
We have a moral and ethical responsibility to provide for our weak, sick, elderly, infirm and out wounded/injured vets. People not abusing the system that are partaking of this benificial system because they are weak, sick, elderly, infirm and wounded veterans make up 98% percent of those utilizing it. A far cry from "wet nursing" capable people. Poll after poll shows that other industrialized countries providing a more extensive level of each social program then the US do better financially, mental health wise, physical health wise and are happier. These are simply facts.
How those other countries are able to do that might surprise you. They tax regressively (low and middle income earners bear the greatest tax burden and as recompense, also reap the greatest benefits) instead of progressively as here in the US. We can't have generous social programs because US low and middle income earners simply refuse to pay their share of taxes.
That is a risk he took and that falls on him, he can not blame anyone else but himself. However, this is an example that the stock market is a gamble. Do not be so sure your investments are so sound just because they have performed especially well. You are gambling with your money. Investing is a gamble that millions of American's do not have the disposable income to partake in. They just simply do not. That is a fact.
Every program, organization and group is subject to fraud, waste and abuse. From teachers, priests, churches, police, non profits, armed services .... the list goes on and on. Should we just eliminate these essential and beneficial things just because Fraud waste and abuse occurs in every...single... thing... or would a better way is work on things that eliminate the Fraud waste and abuse? There are many veterans who do not abuse the system that incurred injuries during wartime that would be detimentally affected if funding for the programs that provide for them is reduced and / or eliminated. You would be ok with this?
Please see my previous paragraph.
I absolutely believe the government can provide reasonable REAL NEEDS based assistance. Please see my previous paragraphs for fraud, waste and abuse. We are getting to the crux here though (I feel like I am now playing therapist - your life experiences of people abusing the system makes you think all people (or at least most people) abuse the system. I am sorry you experienced this and feel that way. Study after study shows that fraud waste and abuse is under 2%. So, should we throw the baby out with the bathwater with these essential and beneficial programs for Billions of people for an under 2% abuse rate or just continually work at reducing the abuse rate through measures and proactive approaches? For me and millions of other people, the answer is crystal clear.
We have a moral and ethical responsibility to provide for our weak, sick, elderly, infirm and out wounded/injured vets. People not abusing the system that are partaking of this benificial system because they are weak, sick, elderly, infirm and wounded veterans make up 98% percent of those utilizing it. A far cry from "wet nursing" capable people. Poll after poll shows that other industrialized countries providing a more extensive level of each social program then the US do better financially, mental health wise, physical health wise and are happier. These are simply facts.
No- the root of my disdain lies in the bursting federal debt. We should not be a debt driven nation. I also don't believe our societies 'government' is capable of managing programs as huge as these. Look at it now- it's running head first into insolvency as it is.
And fraud is more than 2%- trust me.
I've had T Rowe Price Blue Chip Growth for close to 30 years. TRBCX. Solid track record if you stick to it. My grandmother did bonds and fared well. Not as well though.
Last edited by Threerun; 08-10-2020 at 11:56 AM..
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) Yup- paid a doctor off in Maryland to get that one thru. He lives in a trailer on food stamps, SSDI and Catholic charities. Whatever extra money he had he gambled it away. Prior to the trailer he asked if he could move in with me in Montana. I told him hell no. He's not leaching off of me. 
- your life experiences of people abusing the system makes you think all people (or at least most people) abuse the system. I am sorry you experienced this and feel that way. Study after study shows that fraud waste and abuse is under 2%. So, should we throw the baby out with the bathwater with these essential and beneficial programs for Billions of people for an under 2% abuse rate or just continually work at reducing the abuse rate through measures and proactive approaches? For me and millions of other people, the answer is crystal clear. 
