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So far, no one has come up with a good reason for me to want those Confederate statues to stay up. No one has been able to change my mind. And someone needs to come up with something better than "It's part of history". Why should I, as a Black man living in 2020 America, be in favor of Confederate statues staying up, knowing that a major part of the Confederate cause was to keep the institution of slavery? As someone who would rather die than be enslaved, someone needs to come up with a better reason than "it's part of history" or "life wasn't all that bad for slaves(life was bad for slaves)".
I have a question for you.
If southern antebellum culture (the reason the civil war was fought) was so horrible, why are blacks in the south today so much better off than elsewhere?
Black southerners (ex-confederate states) have stronger families and lower crime.
Blacks in Baltimore, Detroit, DC, New York, Los Angeles, etc. have broken families and high crime.
Maybe black culture is the south, that is where most black Americans are from. This culture was created under slavery.
Erasing slavery and southern culture has destroyed the African American community.
Maybe black culture is the south, that is where most black Americans are from. This culture was created under slavery.
...
Erasing slavery and southern culture has destroyed the African American community.
Surely we are not going to argue whether it was a bad thing to erase slavery, because - damn.
Your argument makes little sense, btw. If you want to estimate the effect of emancipation, compare black culture before and after - not black culture north and south. Not that my white Scandinavian rearside has any right whatsoever to sit in judgment on which contemporary black culture is better, mind - what an act of arrogance that would have been.
This is the oath officers took from the 1830's until 1862:
"I, _____, appointed a _____ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."
"I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever"
And look at what he decided to do! And we defend him! Go figure!
What I mean is the culture that brought slavery is also the culture that blacks today are most prosperous in, southern culture.
A pretty recent development, that. "Southern culture" had to have its arm twisted to allow black access to schools, buses, soda fountains. (And to stop killing blacks who got too uppity, of course.)
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AA should embrace their heritage, not listen to civil rights activists who want to create a new culture for them.
Who appointed you arbiter of who African-Americans should listen to? The reason African-Americans have few ties to Africa is that the deep south did everything in their power to stamp out any sort of cultural ties they might have had. Black slaves were deliberately kept ignorant, illiterate, subdued. No written tradition (except for Sundays, when they could get Christian sermons on their duty to obey those with power over them.)
It's not by accident that a significant and lasting African-American contribution to US culture is nonverbal - that is to say, in music. And the prevalent culture in the deep south did all in their power to stamp that out in its infancy.
A pretty recent development, that. "Southern culture" had to have its arm twisted to allow black access to schools, buses, soda fountains. (And to stop killing blacks who got too uppity, of course.)
This is irrelevant, of course whites in the south wanted segregation from blacks, everyone knows that. But even then black communities in the south did better for themselves than those that migrated north.
Individual of whites, blacks prosper in the south. They have local churches and family gatherings and a longer connection to the land.
Less crime too. Go to the far west (LA/Oakland), the Northeast (NYC), the mid-atlantics (Baltimore), or the Midwest (Chicago, Detroit, Milwaukee, etc.) and you see broken families, drugs, and less sophistication.
Compare that with south Carolina, Georgia, or Alabama blacks and you see what I mean. They don't need white people, they can do well in their own communities
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Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA
Who appointed you arbiter of who African-Americans should listen to? The reason African-Americans have few ties to Africa is that the deep south did everything in their power to stamp out any sort of cultural ties they might have had. Black slaves were deliberately kept ignorant, illiterate, subdued. No written tradition (except for Sundays, when they could get Christian sermons on their duty to obey those with power over them.)
It's not by accident that a significant and lasting African-American contribution to US culture is nonverbal - that is to say, in music. And the prevalent culture in the deep south did all in their power to stamp that out in its infancy.
What do you think Kwanza is? An Artificial holiday that pretends black people have ties to Africa.
And it's not just because of slavery. White European-Americans (despite knowledge of their ancestry) have no connection to the old world.
They are Americans, and blacks find their people in the deep south. When they move away to the far north or far west, their communities fall to ruin.
Here's an idea, put "we are all Americans now" on the base of that Statue, then tear that bad boy down. That's what you're up to anyway.
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Originally Posted by Cruz Azul Guy
I agree with you on the point that the history is valuable and should be preserved. I think the disagreement is the part about it being displayed “in honor” in public spaces part of the equation.
The statues should be removed from these spaces and placed in a Confederacy and Jim Crow museum. How’s that for a compromise?
Do you not think that what Robert E. Lee said, was honorable? Hint --- it is a whole other culture in a whole other era, that would serve us better is we did not judge them by our present day bias. There are not that many culturally literate people in the u.s., could be it isn't taught in the schools and one must seek it out in college if they care to learn.
If a person gave their word then, right or wrong --- they stood by it. There was no second guessing as to their motives as we have today --- because a person just knew exactly where everyone stood.
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Originally Posted by Cruz Azul Guy
The statues should be removed from these spaces and placed in a Confederacy and Jim Crow museum. How’s that for a compromise?
Jim Crow museum? And in the north what sort of museum would they have --- ?
Did you know that the North was heavy in discrimination practices and the organization, The Congress of Racial Equality (CORE), founded in 1942 was born up North to combat those practicing beyond their laws of the land? In the 1940s --- The first sit-in was conducted up North ... the protest didn't filter down into the South until 1961?
In the North the law is there, but then so are the people, not really willing to abide by those laws.
In the South you have a different law and then there were those people not really willing to abide by those laws either.
I agree to your compromise though --- the people in Ft Mill might disagree
You can not give freedom (of speech) to one, without giving freedom to all, it doesn't work that way and we had a huge massive civil war that proves it. Be careful the one you silence, isn't that of yourself as well.
Germany eliminated the monuments and flags that honored Hitler/ Nazism. Neither it nor the world has forgotten the Holocaust, well except for the fringe of Holocaust deniers and those who believe in those values.
Thank you middle-age-mom. Tearing down Confederate monuments is not tearing down history in this case. It is the understanding that some people are more deserving of accolades than others. Germany understood that the Nazis/Hitler were horrible. It was understood that in order to move on, this meant tearing down monuments/accolades to the Nazis. The Holocaust remembered by teaching people about it.
The same should be the case about the Civil War. The Confederates should be remembered, but not as heroes. They should never be venerated or given any public places of honor. Putting a Confederate general's statue in front of a courthouse is saying "we honor Confederate generals and what they stand for". Tearing it down says "this Confederate general doesn't deserve to be honored".
Here's an idea, put "we are all Americans now" on the base of that Statue, then tear that bad boy down. That's what you're up to anyway.
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Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA
Of the 1850s and 1860s? Most certainly I am. And I even manage to separate articles discussing the legality of secession from documents describing the slave states' motivation for secession. The latter being s ubject you seem very unwilling to touch on, for some reason.
But sure, some lady in the South taught her slaves to read.
When you read that event, let me know --- Mrs. Margaret Douglass
What did she go to jail for doing?
I had more for you written up in The Rebellion Record; A diary of American Events, there was a speech given by a John Bright --- you would like him, as he gave all of your talking points in the politics of the day. Even though he said, he was only going to take a minute, it was a long speech --- and a great sales job. I scrolled on to the end of it to find another write up, a critique of John Bright's speech that said, given by a man that beat his wife.
Motivation for succession --- they did not want to be made slave to a government dictating to them and I did touch on it, but you didn't care to look at it. Going through the rough draft of history is a long tedious project that not too many people want to take on --- the polished version is much more compelling (black and white) and divisive.
Less crime too. Go to the far west (LA/Oakland), the Northeast (NYC), the mid-atlantics (Baltimore), or the Midwest (Chicago, Detroit, Milwaukee, etc.) and you see broken families, drugs, and less sophistication.
Compare that with south Carolina, Georgia, or Alabama blacks and you see what I mean. They don't need white people, they can do well in their own communities.
Alabama, seriously? Some of the most crushing poverty in the US is found among black people in Alabama. Poverty in Alabama is rampant, and disproportionately so among the black population.
What do you think Kwanza is? An Artificial holiday that pretends black people have ties to Africa.
I think it would be the top of arrogance for me to tell people that their holiday is artificial and based on pretense, but that's just me.
Even if I were to accept at face value the idea that there's some unique southern culture that propels the black population to prosperity (and I don't), that doesn't serve to excuse one iota of the crime that was slavery. Not does it change the fact that Lee embraced slavery and was a harsh slavemaster - not merely by our standards, but by the standards of 1860s Virginia. Although he did express the smarmy attitude that it was, ultimately, for the improvement of the slaves.
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